I am going to toddle along and write a proper review, but having just finished the book I am a little exhausted right now!

There was just one thing I want to sound out with other people though. Maybe this only bothers me because I am a massive Tonks fan and have madly shipped Tonks/Lupin for the last 4 years since I read OOTP.... but one line of the text bothered me and niggled me in the same way that Sirius' comment in OOTP bothered me (Andromeda was [rather than is] my favourite cousin).

I was so happy to finally meet Ted and Andromeda in canon as I have been imagining them for years. BUT...

Why, oh why, oh why did Lupin tell Harry that Tonks' parents were disgusted by her marriage? Andromeda was a BLACK who married a MUGGLE-BORN for god's sake!!!! They should have been the most tolerant people in the world when it came to choosing a partner. I just can't understand it. I know its a tiny tiny point in an amazing book, but as anyone who knows my love for the Tonks family will understand, it niggles me. I know the characters are Jo's, not mine, and I have every respect for that. I just find it very hard to reconcile in my mind the image of a Black who was prepared to marry a "Mudblood" being so closed-minded! Do you think Lupin perceived in his misery and self-loathing that they felt this way, when in fact it wasn't true, or do you think they really felt this way?

I read an interview years ago with Charles Barkley the basketball star who is black. The one thing he said he couldn't stand was racist Black people. According to Barkley, Blacks had suffered so much discrimination and oppression for decades that they of all people ought to know better. So generally, I think being the victim of discrimination does not make someone immune from being intolerant.

purrs,

fc

That line bothered me, too, Nicola. I was surprised when he said it. They may have been dismayed that he was so much older than her, that he was poor and would likely never be able to support her, but not disgusted that he was a werewolf. I can understand their concern about what it would mean for her career with the Ministry as it was, but yeah, I was dismayed by that.

He was feeling really down on himself and panicking about his pending parenthood; it could have been his perception of their concerns and projecting all his fears onto them. I just think if they really protested, he wouldn't have married her.

One thing that really bothered me about Remus and Tonks was that I never saw any evidence that he really loved her. He just seemed to be going with the flow and then regretting it. He was happy about the baby, but he never seemed happy about Dora. I don't really support the ship, but I could live with it if I thought he really loved her, but I just didn't see it. That disappointed me.

Hey Nicola, try to put this into perspective. Most of our reaction to prejudice and discrimination is inflicted by other, but a part of it is self-inflicted. The way Remus spoke about it, I was certain that was the way HE felt. The fact Tonks married him shows she's been brought up with a tolerant mind.
Now, I guess Ted and Andromeda would have been uneasy with the idea of their daughter marrying a werewolf, more for the impact it would have on her life. But Maybe Lupin felt that the marriage disgusted them. Tonks hasn't been thrown out of her parent's life, as far as we know. I think it was more Lupin's angst talking than actual facts.

Oops, you beat me to it, Mary, lol

About Remus loving Tonks... hmmm, the thing is that I think Lupin has been convinced very young that he was worthy of love or care (with the happy exception of the Marauders). So I think that he was a little of the weak position in the couple (meaning Tonks was more the leading force, there). You may point out that once all doubt is cleared about the Tonks loves Remus and doesn't care about him being a werewolf (cf Book 6), they waste no time in marrying (less than two months, while Bill and Fleur's wedding was planned throughout al the sixtht year). I don't think he would have rushed into it, if he didn't love her. Remus was happy about the baby, because it was an undisputed kind of happiness. There was nothing to trouble his happiness at this moment. the rest of the time, he was so haunted by what he thought was the woes he would bring Tonks and his unborn kid that it was hard for him to express his love.

Did I sound convincing?

It actually slipped my notice but you got a point it does annoy me now that i think about it

But if you think about it, maybe the fact the parents dislike it is not because Lupin is not pure blood more because he is a so called "half-breed"a werewolf. They see this as a danger and they kind of want to protect their daughter although i know its wrong but its probably their feelings.

Though i don't think anyone has the right to believe that and say that.

I think that when Lupin said that it ws more of what he was expecting, like in PoA when he says someone let it slip that he was a werewolf and people wouldn't want him teaching their children. He's probably so used to being put down that he naturally assumes it's going to happen. Although I was a little shocked about the way he seemed to view his whole relationship with Tonks, but I was glad that Harry told him how it was.

i know what you mean. i was a bit annoyed with lupin. he loves her yes. but he doesn't seem to show it. how could he not show how he cares? they're just married, for god's sakes. harry and ginny were sweeter. and they weren't together.

I don't blame Lupin that much he needed a reality check and Harry gave him it!

Firstly he never gets used to having good things happening to him, he is in danger and so is everyone if he gets close to anyone it is now its most likely to be destroyed,
and i think the losing of Sirius and James have stayed with him to him they were some of the best people alive they excepted him and they ended up dying maybe part of him doesnt believe he deserves it and also everyone he has got close to have ended up dead James, Sirus i think still play a big part in his life.

His hesitation shows how much he is love with them in a very confusing way he has made his mind up about the way his child will react to him being a werewolf the way most people are and his love for Tonks i think is sweet in a weird way he is adment that she will find someone better and she will get over him even though he may not. I mean look at the brink of war someone can't remeber who asked to see the picture of the baby and he readily had it and also when he told everyone about the baby he wanted to get home and be with his wife and baby if he had any hesitation it dissappered he was ecstatic! lol

we have to remeber that love comes in so many different forms depending on the people and the situation maybe they weren't sweet and mushy but not all love is look how muchy Lavender and Ron were they didnt last! lol thank God

But I know what you mean i wish there was one scene in which he and Tonks were together alone with the baby and Harry showing Harry becomming the godfather, it would have been sweet

Lupin is one of my most faviourite characters and he will always be

I agree with you Marybeth completely that it probably was only his perception of things that's how I sensed it, perhaps her parents were a little worried, but I don't think they would voice it out to Remus or treat him badly in anyway. It was only in his mind, as it is said in the posts he doesn't feel deserving of love and a happy life.


As for whether Remus loved Nymphadora, yes the book lacked it although I'm pretty sure he did, again because he didn't feel deserving of a happy life he didn't show his feelings that easily and perhaps that's why we don't find out. Although in Remus defense when Tonks is late for appearing after the chase to get Harry out of Private Drive, he's mad at her for taking so long, that's because he's worried for her, because he loves her.

Hello all
I am in no doubt that Lupin loved Tonks. In HBP he tries to put her off because he doesn't want her to suffer the way he has, he tries to put her off because he loves her very much, he is just trying to protect her.
When he tries to go with Harry in DH, he is still trying to protect her and their unborn child, he knows what it is to grow up with such prejudice and he wants to make it easier for his son and wife, I think his love for them is just as strong as Harry's for Ginny or Molly and arthur's or Hermione and Ron's. He is such a lovely character that I have never doubted his love for the people he cares about
And he says in DH after Harry says about him dying just after he has had his son, "he hopes his son will understand that he was just trying to make the world in which he will grow up a happier place" Dying the way he did is just the same as the way Harry's parents died to save him, it's the ultimate sacrifice , one that is made by the most powerful thing there is :LOVE.

You're certainly right FC, being a victim does not make one immune from becoming a perpetrator. Case studies of the cycle of physical and mental abuse show that to be a fact.

Indeed self-hate is a very complicated thing. Any one minority group is not unique to this dilemma. Respectfully FC, your use of CB and the Black race is solely an example of this fact and I can appreciate that, but too often it seems that the plight of Blacks is used as a barometer for intolerance. It becomes a bit cliché. We all have our own prejudices, and often it is the thing we hate most in ourselves that we simply project on to others which causes such disdain.

I agree with most of you who simply say it was Lupin's own self - loathing that drew him to the conclusion that he was disliked by Tonks' parents due to his ailment alone. Lupin felt unworthy because he was a werewolf, and probably felt Tonks deserved more. With Tonks' parents validating his insecurities, that's all it took for him to leap to the conclusion that this was the sole purpose of their disillusionment with their marriage.

I also agree fully with IMS who said that Lupin was also trying to act in the best interest of his newborn child. People who have been subjected to racism and prejudice naturally do not want their children to endure the same fate. All these elements influenced Lupin's reactions and interpretations of others reaction to him. He's in defense mode. When you're used to having to constantly fight against the powers that be, it becomes difficult to turn off/on that switch. That goes for Lupin and Tonks' parents. Let's not forget they've had to defend had to defend their marriage as well, and don't wish to see their only daughter suffer the same fate. A little empathy on both sides of the situation may go a long way. Just a thought

I think any family would want the best for their daughter and marrying a werewolf just doesnt come under that. Tonks was their only daughter wasnt she? I think that to some extent, every family would be disgusted a little at someones choice of spouse if they were a werewolf because some people cant see past the name "werewolf."

What disturbs me most about this whole thing is that Andromeda ends up being Teddy's parent. That she must get beyond her disdain for the relationship of his parents, plus losing her husband, to pull herself together and become a real parent. Not to say that she couldn't do this, but it's a very strange set up don't you think?

I also, like many of you, am very disturbed by Lupin in Book 7. He's always been one of my favorite characters, but in this book, for the first time, he really looks weak. And I do get the impression that he may have loved Tonks, but not enough to just suck it up and deal with whatever they had to face without question. If he was truly in love with her, he would have done that. He hesitated. Tonks never hesitated for a second with him. She gave up so much. She gave her life for him when you think about it.

As I said before, it's a very strange set-up j.k. has here. I'm not sure what this is suppossed to teach us, especially since it wasn't very well explained.

Hmmm...I feel like I missed something while reading book 7...where is it writen that Ted and Andromeda had "disdain" for the relationship between Tonks and Lupin? When I read the part about Lupin saying that her parents didn't aprove of the relationship, I thought this was primarily Lupin's own insecurities being projected onto the Tonks'.

Honestly, I feel that Ted and Andromeda had reason to question the relationship...not from the perpsective of dissaproval or prejudice....but more out of being concerned parents. First wasn't Lupin a lot older than Tonks? He went to school with James and Lily and I thought Tonks was in her early to mid 20s at most! Second, their courtship was not very long. Since JK did not go into depth about thier relationship with each other, it seemed as though Tonks had a crush on Lupin for at least a year (book 5-6) and then they got married in the beginning of book 7...and all through book 6 it was my belief that Tonks' feelings toward Lupin were not returned...which is why she was "weird" in book 6. Finally, there were logistical and very important lifestlye changes the both of them would have to think about before getting married. Unlike Fleur and Bill Tonks would have to adjust to a lot more than cooking half-raw meat! Although their love story is very romantic you can't get caught up in romance and not think about the real world challeges that comes with a mariage.

I guess what I'm trying to say (rather longwindedly) is that if I were Tonks' parent I too would be concerned. Not because I would dissaprove but because I would want to check out with my daughter that she has thought about these things before making a life changing decision. I don't think that Tonks' parents were prejudice and I think that raising Teady was probably the best thing that could have happened to Andromeda. Teady was the last exisiting piece of her late daughter and husband.

I think that Lupin was trying to make excuses for his inability to commit at that time. The fact that Tonks would marry a werewolf, I think, shows that she was brought up by accepting people. I think Lupin was saying what he wishes he could use as an excuse not to make a commitment as big as marriage

The thing is, I don't think it so much that Lurpin was a werewolf. More the fact that he was poor, can't get a job and wouldnt be able to look after Tonks and the baby as a man is ment too. Like being the bread winner. I'm not being sexest, please dont think that I am, cause I'm not. As my other half works too and she is still a full time mum. But I really think that it was more from a parents point of view that they didnt like the marrage of them. I know that I would be upset if my little girl come home with a bloke who wasn't working and couldnt get a job.
Plus I also think that it might have been the age gap between them, something I woul be a bit funny about too.
Any parent's out there who read this, will understand what I mean.

I am not a parent yet rooster_eastlondon, but I know exactly what you mean. And it is from a parental point of view that I made my points in response to this discussion. I didn't think of the financial apsect as well, but that's a good point too, granted I'm sure as an Auror Tonks made a decent living.

I didn't mean non-parents wouldn't understand, just ment alot of people who don't have kids yet, would find it hard to understand, but i'm glad you understand

Yeah Tonks more then likely did make a good living, but she would have had to leav work when she was carrying the baby and wouln't be able to go back to work until some time after the baby was born.

Excellent points everyone! I want to weigh in with a few points of my own...

First off, we can't really know whether Lupin displayed loving behavior towards Tonks in Book 7... because we rarely see them together. I wonder what was happening in the Tonks/Lupin household while Harry & Co. were on the run? Perhaps some well-written fanfics could shed some light on this and other struggles that were going on while our heroes were hiding out up and down the country...

Also, I think JKR uses Lupin as a device to elevate Harry. Lupin, who was once (in Harry's words) "the best Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher we ever had," loses confidence. He's tired, scared, worn-down... by everything: the war, his werewolf status, and nervousness about his impending parent-hood. Suddenly, their roles are reversed: Harry becomes his mentor. I felt that Harry was a little harsh when he scolded Lupin in Grimmauld Place, but still, suddenly Harry became the teacher. It was one of the first steps in Harry becoming one of the great wizards of history.

Oh yes Larry Potter, I thought similarly about the dynamic between Lupin and Harry at Grimmauld! It showed to me that Harry had grown up, more than anything else had up to that point--that he could question a former teacher, someone his dad's age and also his dad's friend...that Harry could be forceful to someone like that about what he believed was right, made it clear that Harry had really come of age.

Its sad that Lupin and Tonks weren't shown together more often in the books, but somehow, I always trusted Tonks' judgement. She saw something very worthwhile in Lupin, and like IRL, you can't ever know what goes on between two people in love, the kind of relationship they have when no one's around. I imagine it to be very sweet. I hope people will write fic about it.

I agree that we have focused more on Lupin's woes and not considered all of what their relationship was intimately. What was it in their relationship that even gave Lupin the impression that he had the option of abandoning wife and newborn? This situation certainly gave Harry the platform to showcase his new found maturity. Kudos larrypotter.

I agree with you guys about Tonks' parents, they definitely cared about her and they could think this marriage was too rush and they had a big age difference. They definitely had reasons to doubt if that was really good for their daughter, and I think you know that parents often do not like their children's fiances even without any reason. I'm married and I know what it is, a lot of time passed until my mother-in-law accepted me well.

I wanted to add what I think about Lupin's behaviour. He reminds me Harry in this. Remember, Harry sometimes wanted to leave others so that not to endanger them, though he surely cared about them (5th book, 7th book). He even stopped his relationship with Ginny to protect her. Of course Harry's and Lupin's situations are different, Tonks was going to have a baby... but still their thoughts were similar.
And you know, when a person can part with those whom he/she loves in order to protect them, it shows that their love is really true. When Harry said that Remus was a coward he didn't actually think so, he just wanted him to return to his family.

Good point, Nymph! Although JKR never really points it out to us, I wonder if Harry's argument to Lupin about abandoning his wife and baby make hime think about his own situation. Maybe not: he suggests leaving Ron and Hermione at least twice more in Book 7 (before breaking into the Ministry and before returning to Hogwarts). And this reminds me of something that has bothered me: the treatment of Ginny. How could they just make her sit in the Room of Requirement during the battle? Had she not already demonstrated uncommon skill with her hexes and her abilities in real battle situations (see Book 6 as they fought real Death Eaters)? And Harry (who, in his defense, did have plenty on his mind from trying to locate the final crux not to mention having the Ministry and the most dangerous evil wizard in the world after him) should have understood what it's like to be asked to sit and wait (see Book 5 after getting the letter from the Ministry and lots of other examples too). Motivated people don't like doing nothing!

I was under the impression that Lupin only said that because he thought that Ted and Andromeda Tonks would be disgusted by their daughter's marriage. Lupin already felt badly that any children they had would most likely share his affliction. (however, their son, Teddy Lupin didn't. According to Jo, Teddy Lupin is a Metamorphagus like his mother, not a werewolf) Also, he fears that he made Tonks an outsider by marrying her because, according to him, no one wants to associate with people like him.

I think that Andromeda and her husband would be open - minded - I can't see how they'd disapprove of the marriage, unless they were worried about Tonks' safety. However, Lupin took his potion every month as far as we know (except for that one incident in POA). I think that Lupin would be scared that he'd hurt someone while in his form, just like he was concerned that he could've hurt any of the students at Hogwarts.

I agree that he's also like Harry. He wants to protect her because he loves her. Lupin says he didn't want to marry Tonks only because he didn't want to expose her to danger or being ostracized because of her connection with him.