I was able to remember something in the book saying that Dumbledore and Snape were having a fierce argument. I think it was Hagrid or Trelawney who overheard them

I can't seem to remember which chapter it was from (could anyone be a dear and find out?)

Anyway, if that is so, could it be that they were arguing about the unbreakable vow that Snape made with narcissa? (Obviously, part of the vow was to kill dumbledore if Draco was unable to)

My hypothesis is that, Dumbledore is asking Snape to kill him if the situation arises. This would mean that Dumbeldore was indeed prepared for this situation.

Why did dumbledore do this?

1. If Snape refused to fulfill the vow, Voldemort need not kill him for treachery, the vow would have killed him.

2. If Snape would indeed kill dumbledore, Voldemort would indeed trust Snape - and having a trusted spy is something good during wars right!?

Before the death of dumbledore, there was some pleading made by Dumbledore. I think that this pleading was not to save his life, but rather to fulfill what dumbledore is asking of him.

And when Harry was chasing Snape, Snape was particularly fierce about him being called a coward. Could he have been severely affected by a man who he just killed? I think so.

In the end, I seem to think that Dumbledore was in fact able to make the most out of the situation. Snape could have been a traitor for all I care, but Dumbledore has reasons (grave reasons) to believe that Snape really has changed sides.

I hated snape after reading the book once, but after another reading, there seems to be something behind it all.

wasnt the vow to protect draco, and dracos task to open up hogwarts for DEs ... not kill dumbledore?

No, Draco's task was to kill DD.... he had attempted it through different methods before, and having Death Eaters around just made it much easier to do, and was another method. Of course, he didn't actually go through with it, forcing Snape to act.

which just proves the point. It was either snape kills dumbledore (something that dumbledore i think approved off) or snape does not kill DD therefore breaking the vow - snape = dies!

then why was he in borgins and burkes to get the cabinet fixed? to get the deatheaters into hogwarts...

it was part of his plan, he of course needed more people (DE) to kill dumbledore.. Draco was in fact surprised that the werewolf was there right? I think he expected certain members of the DE to come...

The task was indeed to kill DD.

And a very intresting theory on the argument, one i myself thought about too. There are many thoughts about DD having his own Horcrux, about the potion in the cave having something to do with that too, And it is also important to remember, that DD Begged and Commanded harry to get snape, no one else, when he felt like he was dying.

If he had died, then it would not have been draco or snape who had done it, therefore breaking Snapes vow.

It's that reasoning that makes me believe that Dumbledore did know about the vow...And wanted to keep Snape alive. For what reasons we do not know yet.

I'm also not sure about how much of this he heard from harry, I don't remember how much he told DD, but that DD did suspect Draco all along, and that may have gave him suspicions when Harry blabbed on about it.

dumbledore would have to have killed to get a horcrux. i doubt he would kill anyone to do that!

lol i just re-read and yeh he was to kill dumbledore, lol i always miss the important stuff, always when someone distracts me lol! explains why i was slightly confused come the ending

I agree with you Crookshanks - I feel that Dumbledore was indeed ready for that situation and his pleading was for Snape to go through with the plan. The book constantly said that "Dumbledore trusted Snape" over and over again. With this repeated throughout the books, I really feel that Snape has a large part in this - a good part.

Especially with Snape and Harry out by Hagrids hut - Snape seemed more upset about the coward thing because he just had to kill a respected wizard. He's also had his life on the line for years, and not being caught yet. I'm sure in retrospect after all this is through, Harry will find himself foolish for calling Snape a coward.

The only thing I wonder is most of the Order now believes that Snape is a legit Death Eater - how will he convince them otherwise if he's truly faithly to the right cause? Will he as well as Dumbledore make the ultimate sacrifice to prove his goodness?

Dumbledor and Snape were heard having a row by Hagrid on page 360...Snape saying he did not what to do it...Dumbledore saying he must....
When Snape came out and saw Dumbledore cornered Harry heard Dumbledore pleading! There is no way Dumbledore would have pleaded for his' life! It is just not his style! He was reminding Snape of his Vow to Him that he would have been forceed to make earlier....Dumbledore gave his life to keep Malfoy and Harry alive and Snape in the good graces of the Dark lord so he could keep on working for the good side and never be doubted by Voldemort again.
Once Snape told Dumbledore of the Vow he had made to Narcissa Dumbledore knew that it was either him or Snape that had to Die! Dumbledore has sacrifised himself to make sure that the fight can continue.

Dumbledore knew it was curtains for him, that is why he started telling Harry everything and taking so many risks with himself! He knew it was just a matter of time. If Malfoy could not kill Dumbledore Snape would have to because of his Vow to Cissy and Dumbledore knew this and told Malfoy as such. Dumbledore would not want Malfoy to do it because it would have been corrupting a child...so insisted that Snape do it to save himself and carry on Helping Harry which Snapes does.

Snape told the Death eatter to leave Harry be in the end....That is also why Snape flipped when he was called a coward because he just did the hardest thing he has ever done in his life by killing Dumbledore.

I think that Snape also made another Unbreakable Vow...with Dumbledore. I trust Dumbledore and I believe that he trusted Snape for a reason. Snape probably killed him because Dumbledore ordered him too. The unbreakable vow would be that if he had to kill him, he should kill him and pretend to be working for Voldemort, gain his trust, and use everything he finds out against Voldemort so that he could help Harry.

Hold on....

I wonder if Snape made the "Unbreakable Vow" decision AFTER he spoke to DD or if he just did it, and then told DD. Its quite crucial.

Or maybe, did he tell him at all? Im so confused.

Dumbledore tells Malfoy he knows of the Vow to his Mother. The onbly way that could have happened is if Snape told him ,which he would have done. Dumbledore knew that is time was up that is why he made Snape kill him to keep things moving for Harry and not turn Malfoy into a murderer!

That is a really really good theory. It does make sense, Dumbledore making a vow with Snape to save others. I'm going to assume that he made the Vow with Narcissa after he spoke with Dumbledore, or something I'm not sure. But he agreed to "Help Malfoy," which he did, by killing Dumbledore.

All of what the above has been said makes a lot of sense ^___^ Great work guys.

if this is all correct, i can breathe a sigh of relief. i know that JK has said many times that snape is not what we all think he is. it would be nice to know that he really was doing what dumbledore wanted.

No he didnt make snape kill him, he had to kill him because he promise on that vow that if draco couldnt kill dumbledore, then snape would and if he didnt then he would die.

OH...and Dumbledore's portrait in the Head's Office will have all of his knowledge too so I'm pretty sure when the time comes for answers it will speak up and fill us all in on the plan in true Dumbledore style.

I found that interesting....that after all of the talking amongst the heads of house that they were saying what Dumbledore would have wanted...and no one thought to ask the portrait on the wall. That office has extreme value though. All of the portraits and the knowledge the contain. I think that though Harry says he won't return to Hogwarts, it will still come back in book seven.

I was also thinking that the reason DD pleaded with Snape was because he didn't want Snape to change his mind and not kill him. Yeah...I really think there was an unbreakable vow between them.

thing is though, if there was an unbreakable vow, surely someone would have known about it - snape and narcissa needed a third person to do the vow so dumbledore and snape would also have needed a third person.

Something is most definately fishy about the whole Snape/DD thing, because i came out of HBP not knowing whether or not to hate Snape. Surely if Snape was completely evil, i would have come out with a sense of confirmation that Snape was evil

Oh, it'd be cool if it had been James who was the bonder!

james is dead. jkr has verified this

alanaloud> i had the same feeling. its difficult to understand

Willbo: You make an excellent point. But it just makes me wonder even more now, who that third person could be, lol. If it is that there was an Unbreakable Vow between Dumbledore and Snape of course. But Dumbledore was a very powerful wizard, perhaps they could've done it without a third person? If indeed there was a third person, I think he/she would play an important role in book 7.

Alana: I had that same feeling. That's why I thought of this theory lol.

Yeah I think im in full agreement with Ash! I hate Snape, but now I just cant see him doing what he did just because he took the vow with Narcissa. I think he also took the vow with Dumbledore just like Ash said. Who knows, maybe Snape might fill Dumbledores role in teaching Harry everything he knows about Voldemort?...

I know he's dead. But if Snape came to Dumbledore before Voldemort went after
Harry...

I don't think it's likely but it would be cool because it would be a way of showing how James isn't the prat he comes off as being sometimes.

Anyway it there was an Unbreakable Vow between Snape and DD and the bonder is alive they'd be very important.

I was bothered by the artwork for the unbreakable vow on the book cover. The one hand looked so old, I thought from the start that it must be Albus. But then, it was Snape and Narcissa who made the vow. *Puzzles* Maybe Albus did make a vow with Severus that Sev would kill Albus when instructed.

I'm just grasping at straws about who would have performed the charm, and I was thinking Remus. He seemed very stilted in telling Harry why he trusted Snape. He basically said 'good enough for Albus is good enough for me.' That kind of blanket acceptance seems odd for Remus. He's such a thinker. He would think things through and come to his own conclusion. He would accept and trust Snape for his own reasons. (I think.) But he doesn't tell Harry that.

I don't know. Remus didn't have much to do in the book, but he appears in that scene telling Harry to trust Snape. Why? He was shocked that Albus was dead, but he didn't rail against Sev, did he? He seemed--odd. His reaction just seemed odd to me.

Like I said, I'm grasping, but I'll have another think after I read it again.

someone said that their argument was on page 360.. i think that is in the UK cover. I have the US version, can anybody help me to locate it?

anyway, I actually think that DD and Snape had an unbreakable vow too. It would make sense that Snape would redeem himself. The only thing is that, when the time comes, would Harry give Snape the opportunity to redeem himself!?

Snape would have made the Vow with Narcissa aand then told Dumbledore about it. Hehad to make the vow or he would have been caught. Severus was willing to give his own life to protect Dumbledore and the order but Dumbledore would have seen more use in having Snape carry on his work against Voldemort and Malfoy living than his own life continuing. Dumbledore would have made Snape promise to kill him if it came to it in order to save Malfoy and Himself.

The protrait was sleeping when there were having their meeting...maybe the portraits need time to wake up naturally...Death can be a traumatic think and you would have thought that a little bit of recovery time would be in order.

I, too, believe that Snape followed Dumbledore's orders. Besides, it seems clear that these orders were what they discussed in the arguing scene we were told about.

But I fail to understand why they would have used another Unbreakable Vow. The first vow already guaranteed Snape's death in case he didn't do Draco's task. Of course, Dumbledore could have made Snape take the vow to do the killing in order to save Draco even in case Draco had not hesitated to kill in the end. However, it seems Dumbledore (and JKR) emphasizes the individual's own choices. Draco was saved because he actually chose not to kill, and I believe that's how Dumbledore wanted it to happen.

That's why I don't think we need a third person to have known about the agreement between Dumbledore and Snape. People have asked on the "Snape" thread whether it makes any sense that nobody knows Snape is truly on Harry's side. But perhaps Dumbedore thought Harry had to learn not to rely too much on anyone else as an authority either – not even mysterious Half-Blood-Princes. This could somehow explain why Dumbledore didn't want Harry to know (and consequently anyone else to know) that Snape didn't betray him. Perhaps he arranged so that at the right time Harry will find a memory revealing the truth.

It is, however, possible that Remus knows. He doesn't comment at all on the news that Snape was the murderer. I agree with you, Mary Beth: Remus was somehow strange both in the hospital wing scene and in the Christmas scene. But perhaps we are just too much influenced by some fanon extrapolations of Remus's character as an individual thinker!

If Remus is the only one who knows, he may finally have an important role as Harry's mentor in book seven. (I doubt he'll have time to think about a marriage, while Harry, too, abandoned his girlfriend.)

No one would have agreed with Dumbledore giving himself in exchange for Snape and Malfoy. They would have argued and interviened in ways that would have destroyed Snapes standing with Voldemort so it would have been just between DD and Snape. As for using another Unbreakable vow, I doubt Dumbledore would have needed to do that with Snape...They had TRUST something Narcissa and Belatrix did not really have. The unbreakable Vow is nothing short of forcing someone to do something they don't want to do, granted Snape would not have wnated to kill Dumbledore but it was the only way according to Dumbledore and Snape would follow.

Yes, I agree with you, Violated Goat. Dumbledore must have wanted Snape to make the decision as freely as possible, too. He must have understood that Snape would have rather been tempted to sacrifice himself in any case. Somehow Snape turned out to be brave enough to sacrifice his own sacrifice (if I'm making any sense any longer).

Elaborating on Mary Beth's theory of Remus knowing (although I don't agree that he would have been needed for a vow), I wonder if Remus could have agreed about the plan. JKR may well have made him "Dumbledore's man through and through", too, so he wouldn't question his leader's ideas. However, there would also be the risk that he'd be forced to reveal the plot to the enemy. He's not leading an exactly safe life. And I doubt he's as good a Legilimens as Snape (but that's again my extrapolation that his greatness is not in magical talent).

That's why I'm inclined to believe that Harry will learn the truth through a recorded memory or from the portrait at the time Dumbledore has planned for this revelation. (I actually hope Remus won't have a big role in book seven either, so we'll never find out his final response to Tonks's advances. But we'll probably hear more about the werewolves.)

I actually dont want Lupin to become close to harry! As the pattern goes, anyone who gets close to Harry really does die! this is sad, i actually was touched several times during Harry and Dumbledore's conversation.

I actually hated the way Dumbledore died! I hated snape. But after rereading it, it seems that there is something more to this. It seems that Dumbledore had in fact prepared himself for that moment.

The act of having another unbreakable vow would be a possibility, just to ensure that Snape would do his end of the "deal".. but then.. judging from his emotional escape out of Hogwarts, Snape was in fact in a way,. traumatized about what he did..

So much going on in this thread already.

There is clearly something here. There were several clues that Snape isn't just another death eater. I agree that Dumbledore's pleading wasn't his style. This is the man who calls Voldemort "Tom" to his face. He calmly talks to the most feared werewolf, confidently eggs on Draco, who he knows was instructed to kill him. He was pleading with Snape to fulfill his vow.

No other vow was needed.

In the seconds before Snape murdered DD, he had a look of hatred and disgust on his face. I believe it was a self loathing, and a hatred towards the situation he was placed in.

As Harry chased Snape, Snape said "No unforgivable curses from you Potter" (paraphrasing) but added quickly that he couldn't without meaning it. I think, really, he was still wanting to protect Harry.

Dumbledore has often talked of an old man's mistakes. Still, as we saw in the cave, he was still a brilliant and capable wizard. Wrongly trusting Snape is much much more than an old man's mistake. He has made crucial mistakes, yes. But he knew EVERYTHING about Draco's plans (I don't doubt that he also knew about the wardrobe, espeically with Harry's tip). I still think he was right to trust Snape. I think he was ready to die...the next big adventure after all, right? And, knowing that Harry would not be at peace until hunting for Voldemort, he sort of had to step aside.

The headmaster portraits: Sadly, I get the impression that the portraits can advise new headmasters, but perhaps cannot recollect or answer questions from the past. But who knows. I'm sure it will be reassuring to have some form of DD around nonetheless.

at least there would be some form of Dumbledore around right? This is so much better than the death of Sirius.. we hardly ever knew why Sirius died.. the people were not even able to find the body and make a proper burial.

personally, i think thats the reason why jkr had the portraits of old headmasters so that when dumbledore is killed, we can still get info from him.

I would love to believe this theory but I just can't. I think Snape's true colours have finally been shown. None of the other members of the Order were aware of Dumbledore asking Snape to kill him if the situation arises; dont you think at least one other member of the order would have needed to know? Otherwise Sanpe would have been working entirely alone.

I think it all comes down to what Dumbledore said to Harry, that with his being cleverer than a lot of men his mistakes are much greater; it was a huge mistake to trust Snape

i thought that too - surely someone else would know. but then again, sometimes its best that nooone else knows so that then there isn't any interfering and theres no chance of them slipping up and telling someone they shouldnt.

I see the sense in what you're saying, but surely if that was the case Dumbledore would have to have offered Snape some protection by telling at least one trusted member of the Order; otherwise Snape would have the entire Order after him. I think we have finally discovered the truth about Snape, after all we were repeatedly told to keep an eye on him and jk has made sure to highlight that even Dumbledore can make mistakes.

true. we will have to wait and find out. i dont like snape but i can see my idea coming to show him to be good - it would be a good plot twist seeing as so many people hate snape!

I thought from the moment I finished the book that Dumbledore had asked Snape to kill him when the time came. Why else would he have asked for Snape when they arrived in Hogsmeade and why would he have made sure Harry knew everything he could tell him before the end of the year? He got injured and knew he was too old to carry on. The picture on the UK cover of the unbreakable vow can't be Dumbledore because the old hand is a right hand, which he injured. I'd have thought he made a vow with Snape after he was injured, when he knew his time was up, or after Snape made te vow with Narcissa, in order to allow him to continue as the valuable spy the Order needs without Voldemort suspecting. I think if Dumbledore and Snape made a vow, maybe Dumbledore's brother Aberforth oversaw it, the one who works in the Hog's Head.
I think Harry will return to Hogwarts to get advice from Dumbledore's portrait, but he won't stay all year. I saw JK's interview and she said she had made his intentions very clear and made it sound like they would be carried out. Oh well

I think I can remember reading something saying that Snape helped Dumbledore to destroy the ring and without him, Dumbledore would've died in trying to destroy it. Something like that. So Snape helped destroy a part of Voldemort. Maybe he did it without recognition to what he was doing, but it may also be showing his allegiance to the Order.

Also, I think I remember reading in one of the recent interviews that in the 7th book, a member of the Order that we've barely heard of will become more important. Well, wasn't Aberforth in the Order? He was mentioned as being in that picture that Moody had, but that's about all we've heard of him. So if they did make another vow, it's a possibility that Aberforth did oversee it. Which would make him much more important in the next book.

I agree with all (err, most) of you that Snape is still on DD's side. Here's a clue from JKR herself back in 1999.

-- J.K. Rowling interview transcript, The Connection (WBUR Radio), 12 October, 1999

There's an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape

JKR: He, um, there's so much I wish I could say to you, and I can't because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I'm slightly stunned that you've said that and you'll find out why I'm so stunned if you read Book 7. That's all I'm going to say.

Note she says Book SEVEN, not SIX or FIVE. And this was before Book FOUR was even released.

It will be a far more interesting Book 7 if everyone *knows* Snape is evil, and it turns out that he isn't. But I suspect we won't know that until the third chapter from the end of the book.

Dumbledore will have told only one person and that person will make himself known shortly! Good old Aberforth (Dumbledore's brother), who is also a memeber of the order, will step up to bat (smelling like me) and have the goods to clear Snapes name when it comes to it. Dumbledore will have had all the bases covered! Unless Dumbledore was killed Snape and Malfoy would have both died! Snape is far more important to the eventual downfall of Voldemort than Dumbledore was and DD knew this to be true.

DD detroyed the ring on his own but was hurt and would have died unless Snape helped...If Snape wanted Dumbledore dead he could have just let it happen then...He has had plenty of chances to kill DD. The reason DD had to die was because of the vow Snape made with Narcissa! Had Snapes life not meant more to the destruction of Voldemort DD would have let Snape die as I'm sure had excepted when he made the vow.

Also in the second chapter? When the sisters are questioning snape he says hes spying on DD and all of that but what i cant remeber him saying was that hes was inside the order spying! something that maybe the dark lord and the death eaters didnt know?

Well, If Snape killed DD under his orders, I think that Harry must know somehow, if not, he will not listen to anything that Snape could hint him or tell him, that will become a real problem to DD plans.

Has it occurred to anyone that the argument could have been about HARRY? DD could have been asking him to protect him and not to hate him as he always had. He was convinced he was the answer to conquering Voldemort, so his last appeal may have been to have Snape shield Harry, and had nothing to do with his own life. In this case, DD would have accepted death or have been wanting an antidote to the poison in order to carry on the fight....fight....fight.

I don't think he dreamed he was going to be killed with the AK. I don't think he knew about the Unbreakable Vow either. I think Snape was easily able to lie to him.

I think Harry will know about it when Snape finally acts to save his life (or something like that).. snape's true colors have yet to be revealed.. and what more a better mole when only DD and a possible third person are the only people who know about snape's true intentions...

I think another person would have to come in... to try and calm Harry down.. we all know how emotional he can get... somebody has got to explain.. and i dont think it will be snape.. or if it was.. could we see a more emotional snape?

I believe to answer your question, Dumbledore answers this himself in a way. When he tells gosh I forgot whom, but anyway he tells either Draco or Harry that he's been had an argument with Snape because he didn't investigate his house well enough. That was what the argument was about.