46 replies to this topic

[Merlin321]

Ok I posted this on the Snape topic, yes, but this is a really big one, so I thought it deserved a new topic too. And First I have to say, my sister, mom, and dad came up with this one while watching an HP comercial, I was in my room.

I have realized something that might be a valuable answer to Snape.

I believe he can be inoccent, but I could be wrong.

First: Snape is very good at potions, Dumbledore has said it many many times, Lupin also got the potion he needed from Snape, and Dumbledore asked for Snape at the end, and the potions book he wrote on, it basically means that Snape was problably the best potions maker of the century.

Second: Dumbledore trusts Snape.

Third: This is the most important thing of all, in the first book, Snape says one thing that may be a clue to Dumbledores fate, and I quote:

"You are here to learn the subtle science and exact art of potion making," he began. He spoke in barely more than a wisper, but they caught every word-like Professor McGonagall, Snape had the gift of keeping a class silent without effort. "As there is little foolish wand-waving here, many of you will hardly believe this is magic, I don't expect you will really understand the beauty of the softly simmering cauldron with its shimmering fumes, the delicate power of liquids that creep through human veins, bewitching the mind, ensnaring the senses. . . . I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper death - if you aren't as big a bunch of dunderheads as I usually have to teach.

Stopper Death. Hmmm.........is this a hint that was forged into the first book.

What are your opinions?

[Roderick]

Ok . . .*prepares for the discussion*

I agree in the point that Snape is innocent but I think I can post things to follow up your theory.

BIGGEST SPOILER EVER!


Evidence 1:
My theory begins with the missing sentence from the Bloomsbury editions:

"He cannot kill you if you're already dead"

This sentence is part of Dumbledore's dialogue when he's convinving Draco to come to the right side.

Evidence 2:

There's an article based on valid theories of why Snape is not guilty . . .

-->>Shocking news from the first ever UK conference of adult HP fans, Accio 2005, has just come in! Snape is innocent! The conference, which holds panels, presentations, games, and informal discussions, included a trial to determine whether or not Severus Snape is guilty of four charges: 1) the murder of one "beloved character"; 2) treason on account of becoming a Death Eater; 3) that his treason has continued, as he remains a member of the Death Eaters; and 4) assault and battery against minors. The Accio Grand Jury consisted of Accio delegates, and the "trial" was held on Friday, July 29th at Reading University in Reading, UK.

The event allowed HP fans from all over to send in questions and concerns via email in defence of Professor Snape, or to support the case against him. In a letter sent to The Leaky Cauldron, two of the trial's organizers express their thoughts on the decision:

It is a failing of our justice systems across the world when, the man with the smoking wand, is allowed to walk free, and claim innocence. Especially, when previously the wizarding community have, on no evidence what so ever consigned other wizards such as the late Sirius Black to years in prison.<<--

This an re-reading HBP leaved me to the conclusion that when Snape came to "kill" Dumbledore, dumbledore wan't begging to Snape for don't being killed, DD wanted indded to be killed . . . as part of the plan . . .

Theory

I've read several times the last 4 chapters of HBP and realized that there are too many reasons of why this was planed . . .

Reason #1:

When Dumbledore and Harry are entering Hogwarts in the brooms they're taking off every single spell that protects Hogwarts from apparition . . .later the HBP disaparates in Hogwarts bounds . . .When Snape shout the spell, Dumbledore may have used some wand-less magic or whatever to float in the middle of the room, but he never felt from the Astronomy room, he apparated down and later he did as he was dead on the grown . . . he disapparated later in his tomb, when we see "white flames" it was just a trick to have the dissaparition really hidden.

Reason #2:

The fact that we realized that someone could act as dead in the wizarding world withouth anyone noticing was shoking, was DD revealing his plan to Draco? . . .

Obviously he knew Draco wasn't under his "orders" that was why he tried to convince him, but he didn't use anything to convince Snape . . . that's a well hidden plan . . .

Reason #3:

Dumbledore was one of the greatest wizards of all time, he was a great Occlumens so he could easily read what Snape was thinking anytime . . .just as he did with Tom Riddle when he wanted to take a job at Hogwarts . . .DD obviously had several reasons to trust Snape . . . and it's very difficult that someone could trespass sucha great security as DD's mind . . .also when DD dies he floates . . .but when Moody used to Avada Kedavra on the spider, I don't remember it shooting into the air..


Reason #4:

How are we sure that Snape's not dead? If my theory is true he may be dead because of breaking the Unbreakable Vow . . .or Voldy's request was not to kill DD, but to use Avada Kedabra against him . .. if that's the case there would be plenty of opportunities to make a plan in which Voldy's request is accomplished, but withouth killing DD.

Reason #5:

As some of you may have noticed, Jo always includes something important in the series that is related to the Trio's lessons, like the Unforgivalbe curses, etc. In this case there was the "Whispering magic" (don't remember it's name) in which you didn't had to say the spell out loud . . .was this used by DD?


Your Theory applies(sp) here perfectly . .

Snape and Dumbledore had it all planned, and part of that plan. Snape may have prepared this potion for tha fake . . do you think this potion helps/prevents the attack of the Avada Kedavra? I think he didn't really stopped it with this potion, but he faked DD's death easily . . .DD just had to seem death . . it sould all have been a trick don't you think?

All of this was posted here: Theory of a Great Secret

Which is a topic I did after reading HBP for the 4th time . . .

[potterlovnmom]

I was thinking the exact same thing. I just finished re-reading SS for like the sixth time and this just jumped out at me. I believe Snape is innocent. And you're theory falls right in line with why DD specifically asked for Snape when he and Harry returned from the cave.

[Merlin321]

Roderick there are some things that I disagree with though.

First Snape apparates outside of the boundaries of Hogwarts. And I don't think DD would take off every spell on Hogwarts, that would be irrational. And Snape was also a great Occlumens too. He could block out his mind very well, even DD said Snape was a better Occlumens than DD.

[marymcbeth]

Snape didn't disapparate until he was off school grounds. He was at the gates. He had to run from Beaky, remember?

I hold this theory close to my heart and hope you are right, but the rational me believes it's wishful thinking.

[DarkAuror859]

i'd hate to say this,but i don't think that he's innocent.i just don't.i've re-read "Spinners End' like a thousand times,and it explains why he stayed at hogwarts.he was still under Voldemort while he was a teacher,although DD relieved him.snape could've taken advantage of that and relayed private messages to Voldemort the whole time.

[potterlovnmom]

I know what most of the evidence says, GUILTY! But there are just too many other things that say NOT. For instance, the the line in Chapter 28

"blocked again and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!"

I think that Snape is actually trying to help Harry here. He's telling him that if he doesn't pay attention to what he's been taught, he won't win. I think it had to come down this way, and I have a feeling that Snape is going to continue to HELP Harry without Harry even realizing it. As for " Spinner's End" I think this is just a prelude telling us what Snape is willing to do to protect his cover and keep the DEs and LV believing his illusion of loyalty. Don't get me wrong...I'm no Snape fan in the least. But I just think that there is ALOT here that JK wants us to believe so that she can say GOTCHA at the end of book 7.

[Merlin321]

I agree potterlovnmom.

There are many reasons for Snape to be inoccent too.

[Romulus]

However, Snape wasn't very helpful to Harry when they were having their Occlumency classes. If it was so important, Snape would have been a little kinder, I think.

[Merlin321]

Snape isn't one to be kind, he did really hate James Potter. That's all Snape does is say Harry is exactly like James. And they do indeed look basically exactly alike. So it problably brings back many bad memories for Snape.

[the pottster]

roderick i agree with u completely

[potterlovnmom]

However, Snape wasn't very helpful to Harry when they were having their Occlumency classes. If it was so important, Snape would have been a little kinder, I think.

Other than the fact that Harry is soo much like James and this is a reminder to Snape of the animosity, His harsh treatment of Harry during the lessons didn't really begin until after Harry read his mind. If you were trying to teach someone something and they turned it around and used it against you (even if it was by accident) wouldn't you be a little more precautious and just a wee bit ticked off.


Still want to say I'm not a Snape lover, but just don't want to decide until the facts are presented.

[Lost]

I know what most of the evidence says, GUILTY! But there are just too many other things that say NOT. For instance, the the line in Chapter 28

"blocked again and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!"

I think that Snape is actually trying to help Harry here. He's telling him that if he doesn't pay attention to what he's been taught, he won't win. I think it had to come down this way, and I have a feeling that Snape is going to continue to HELP Harry without Harry even realizing it. As for " Spinner's End" I think this is just a prelude telling us what Snape is willing to do to protect his cover and keep the DEs and LV believing his illusion of loyalty. Don't get me wrong...I'm no Snape fan in the least. But I just think that there is ALOT here that JK wants us to believe so that she can say GOTCHA at the end of book 7.

I've been thinking about this alot lately. I don't like Snape one bit and based on what we've had of him so far I would not think he was innocient, but I would not be surprised at all if JKR pulls a twist and Snape turns out to be a good guy in the end.

[katetriss]

After re-reading OotP and HBP, I'm pretty convinced that Snape is still a Death Eater. Re-reading the section about occlumency lesson in OotP, it's pretty obvious, to me at least, that Snape is weakening Harry's mind, allowing Voldemort easier access so he can pull that trick with Sirius to lure Harry to the ministry. Harry always has disturbing dreams after occlumency lessons, and while he never really practiced, I don't think Snape tried too hard to teach him either, just sort of attacked his mind. I believe it is in these lessons that he refers to Voldemort as "The Dark Lord" and he gets angry when Harry calls him out on it. Old habit, perhaps, but I doubt it.

Furthermore, in HBP, in the chapter Spinner's End, Snape explains to Bellatrix (and us) what exactly he is doing at Hogwarts and it just seems all too convincing for me. Furthermore, he makes the unbreakable vow, sealing his fate as a Death Eater. From the flashbacks we see of his past, its obvious Snape had a tough life early on, but dealt with it by pushing away everyone that was nice to him (Lily), and that he has a past similar to Voldemort's (Muggle dad who beat up his witch mother, even worse than just walking out on her). In my opinion, Snape is a huge coward, who doesn't like to look weak in front of other people. I'm sure he became such a good occlumens because he didn't want anyone else to see his feelings, as this makes him vulnerable. I don't think Snape really had anything against Dumbledore, but he was too afraid of dying (breaking the vow) and Voldemort's wrath to not kill him.

I think it would be way too confusing, especially for younger readers, if Snape turned out to really be good all along. I don't think he is purely evil, like Voldemort or Bellatrix, but I think his cowardice makes him do evil things. Maybe he will redeem himself somewhere along the way, but I think he has been acting on Voldemort's orders for quite some time.

[LORD VOLDERMORT]

HAHAHAHAHAHA!

Good theories but i will tell you the truth dumbledore is truly dead or snape would be dead according to the unbreakable vow.


snape is truly a death eater he is a most cunning one at that

he ha s no value waht soever he can not find my HORCRUXES HE IS EVIL

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Camerata]

I'm sure that Snape is good at 100 %. On a french forum (Alohomora), there are theories saying that Snape and Dumbledore had a plan together, that Snape must kill him to prove his faithfulness to Voldemort and continue to spy on him. At the end, we can see that Snape have could easily kill Harry but he didn't and even gave advices to him when they fought. And there are more things to prove that again. I trust Severus

[Eilish]

However, Snape wasn't very helpful to Harry when they were having their Occlumency classes. If it was so important, Snape would have been a little kinder, I think.

I think that Snape's behaviour towards Harry is completely independent from weather (sp?) he's good or bad. Because no matter for whom he's truly loyal he has to interact with Harry, which is a bitter reminder of James and his teenage years, and well after all Snape is also human, so he takes out his bitterness on Harry.

[LORD VOLDERMORT]

First of all

snape is not the best potion maker LORD VOLDERMORT is the best
only he could think of a body returning potion

secondly

snape is guilty

[Merlin321]

Yes that may be all fine and dandy to you but, no offense or anything, but your word isn't final. JKRowlings word is final.

[katetriss]

The one thing that really makes me think that Dumbledore didn't plan for Snape to kill him, or even know that his life was in real jeopardy (DD knew about Draco but also knew he wouldn't follow through) is that he never showed or told Harry the means of destroying a horcrux. One of the things that I was really wondering about at the end of HBP when the trio decide to go after the horcruxes was "so what if they find the other horcruxes. How do they destroy them?" Harry was told by Slughorn that the spell to create a horcrux is very dark and complex (he doesn't know the incantation himself), and I'm assuming destroying a horcrux is just as complex and unknown. Destroying the diary was simple enough, but considering what happened to Dumbledore's hand after he destroyed the ring shows that it is no easy matter, especially if the arguably strongest wizard of the time can't break the curse without permanent injury. If Dumbledore knew he was going to die, I think he would have left Harry with some information on how exactly this is done. If he had asked Snape to kill him, making Snape innocent, then I think he would have made sure to give Harry this important information before departing. I stand by my previous post that Snape is indeed guilty of killing Dumbledore, but his motives and true alignment are still hazy to me.

[gryffindor_teacher]

I think he's guilty

-Snape shouted, "It's over!" and fled from the castle, apparating just beyond its bounds.

-He has a look of "intense hatred" on his face before he kills Dumbledore

-Also, Snape said something to the effect of, "Let's go before the Ministry comes!"

-Chapter 2, "Spinner's End" clearly shows how Snape can't possibly be innocent (if in fact everything he's telling Bellatrix and Narcissa is true)

I think Snape will be very lucky if he doesn't get caught by the Ministry or an Auror (or Harry for that matter... I think he and Harry will have some kind of a showdown)

[Anya128]

look, I'm not sure if snampe is innocent/guilty, so im not going to argue about that, but, look, DUMBLEDORE IS DEAD!!!!

YES, of course I love him, I'm just saying it would be...whats the word...cliche...if dumbledore came back from life.

In OotP, Sirius fell behind a veil, aand no one ever saw him again.....so it's mysterious, as in no one is sure whether he's dead or not, and it takes harry while to realize he's gone

Then, in HBP, HARRY SAW WITH HIS OWN EYES DUMBLEDORE WAS HIT WITH AVADA KEDAVRA.
THEN WITNESSES SAW DUMBLEDORE FALLING OFF THE ASTRONEMY TOWER
HAGRID CARRIED HIM TO HIS COFFIN, WHERE HE WAS ENGULFED BY WHITE FLAMES
THEN BURIED DEEP UNDER THE GROUND IN A CLOSED COFFIN

He's dead guys, sorry.

[potterlovnmom]

After re-reading OotP and HBP, I'm pretty convinced that Snape is still a Death Eater. Re-reading the section about occlumency lesson in OotP, it's pretty obvious, to me at least, that Snape is weakening Harry's mind, allowing Voldemort easier access so he can pull that trick with Sirius to lure Harry to the ministry.

This got me to thinking even more. Once again I state I'm NOT a Snape fan and don't know whether he's innocent or not but, this statement made me think even more that he is innocent. What if he wasn't trying to weaken Harry's mind to let Voldy invade it, but trying to open his mind so that he would see into LV's? Think about it, he had those visions about things that LV was doing after his "lessons", so maybe Snape was hoping that there was a connection between the 2 minds and that by opening Harry's up he would actually be helping him see into lv's. Just a thought.


Dawn

[Merlin321]

That is another great point too potterlovnmom.

But what this all comes down to is, the next book.

Which we'll have to wait for.

[minisnitch]

this subject actually makes my brain hurt, there are just to many arguments for and against snape being good/bad and they are all valid. the plain fact is j.k loves leaving us hanging on to every word and keeping us on the tip of our toes. i really dont think we will be able to truly resolve this until the final book and to be honest i dread that day...

[slytheriness]

I believe he's innocent, just generally

I also believe DD is dead and gone.

He has a look of "intense hatred" on his face before he kills Dumbledore

I don't buy that as support, sorry. Without being in Snape's POV, we don't know what that hatred was for - DD, or the task Snape had to perform.

I'd love to hear more theories on why the term 'coward' gets to Snape so much - I just can't think why it does, but I'm pretty sure it'll be explained in book 7. Perhaps it fits in with the DD and Snape plan theory - killing DD and turning half the wizarding world against himself is incredibly brave in that scenario, because no-one will ever know.

[neiser]

What about the part in HBP when Harry sees Snape and Dumbledore at the edge of the forbidden forest and hears Snape saying, 'I don't want to do this anymore.' What does that mean? Again, it could go two ways.

[Bristol]

see my opinion is that its could be both.... Snape was trusted by Dumbledore.... Dumbledore jinxed Harry not to go into the school and Harry saw Snape kill Dumbledore..... BUT Dumbledore could have known that Greyback was coming so he protected Harry by stopping him but in the end Harry saw Dumbledore die.....The last book will put a end to all questions but in the time it takes to come too many questions will be asked and many theories will be circulating... Like R.A.B.... ill save me thoughts for another post on this

[Keri]

This whole topic confuses me. I start siding with Snape, that he's innocent. But then I re-read the end, and the way Snape acts, really makes me think that he really hated Dumbledore & Harry and wanted both dead. My fists always clench when he kills DD and hurts Harry. I don't understand why when Harry is chasing him at the end, he has so much hate, if he was on their side. OK, Harry's father was mean to him about 20 years ago. Maybe the "hate" was a cover, at the end, when Harry is chasing Snape out of the school, but who would have seen him other than Malfoy? (And Malfoy didn't complete his task of killing DD, Snape had to, so Voldy won't be too happy anyway). Well, I guess we'll have to wait. Probably two or three years.

JK has so much power in her hands!

[Sunny]

I agree with you Keri,

everytime I reread HBP I just flinch at the way Snape looks at Dumbledore and hatred is etched in every line of his face. I am sure Snape is a good actor but when he looks like that he is definitely not pretending it.

And then, why would he want to help Dumbledore if he hates him? Not that I don't want Snape to be one of the 'good guys' but it seems so unlikely to me. The reasons he gave Bellatrix at Spinner's End where so convincing.

Anyhow, I really like your theory but somehow I simply can't believe it to be true ...