77 replies to this topic

[Roderick]

SPOILER ALERT!

Ok, I've made up a theory to show you several points:
1- Snape's not guilty
2- Dumbledore may not be really dead
3- There's something they've been hidding us . . .


Evidence 1:
My theory begins with the missing sentence from the Bloomsbury editions:

"He cannot kill you if you're already dead"

This sentence is part of Dumbledore's dialogue when he's convinving Draco to come to the right side.

Evidence 2:

There's an article based on valid theories of why Snape is not guilty . . .

-->>Shocking news from the first ever UK conference of adult HP fans, Accio 2005, has just come in! Snape is innocent! The conference, which holds panels, presentations, games, and informal discussions, included a trial to determine whether or not Severus Snape is guilty of four charges: 1) the murder of one "beloved character"; 2) treason on account of becoming a Death Eater; 3) that his treason has continued, as he remains a member of the Death Eaters; and 4) assault and battery against minors. The Accio Grand Jury consisted of Accio delegates, and the "trial" was held on Friday, July 29th at Reading University in Reading, UK.

The event allowed HP fans from all over to send in questions and concerns via email in defence of Professor Snape, or to support the case against him. In a letter sent to The Leaky Cauldron, two of the trial's organizers express their thoughts on the decision:

It is a failing of our justice systems across the world when, the man with the smoking wand, is allowed to walk free, and claim innocence. Especially, when previously the wizarding community have, on no evidence what so ever consigned other wizards such as the late Sirius Black to years in prison.<<--

This an re-reading HBP leaved me to the conclusion that when Snape came to "kill" Dumbledore, dumbledore wan't begging to Snape for don't being killed, DD wanted indded to be killed . . . as part of the plan . . .

Theory

I've read several times the last 4 chapters of HBP and realized that there are too many reasons of why this was planed . . .

Reason #1:

When Dumbledore and Harry are entering Hogwarts in the brooms they're taking off every single spell that protects Hogwarts from apparition . . .later the HBP disaparates in Hogwarts bounds . . .When Snape shout the spell, Dumbledore may have used some wand-less magic or whatever to float in the middle of the room, but he never felt from the Astronomy room, he apparated down and later he did as he was dead on the grown . . . he disapparated later in his tomb, when we see "white flames" it was just a trick to have the dissaparition really hidden.

Reason #2:

The fact that we realized that someone could act as dead in the wizarding world withouth anyone noticing was shoking, was DD revealing his plan to Draco? . . .

Obviously he knew Draco wasn't under his "orders" that was why he tried to convince him, but he didn't use anything to convince Snape . . . that's a well hidden plan . . .

Reason #3:

Dumbledore was one of the greatest wizards of all time, he was a great Occlumens so he could easily read what Snape was thinking anytime . . .just as he did with Tom Riddle when he wanted to take a job at Hogwarts . . .DD obviously had several reasons to trust Snape . . . and it's very difficult that someone could trespass sucha great security as DD's mind . . .


Reason #4:

How are we sure that Snape's not dead? If my theory is true he may be dead because of breaking the Unbreakable Vow . . .or Voldy's request was not to kill DD, but to use Avada Kedabra against him . .. if that's the case there would be plenty of opportunities to make a plan in which Voldy's request is accomplished, but withouth killing DD.

Reason #5:

As some of you may have noticed, Jo always includes something important in the series that is related to the Trio's lessons, like the Unforgivalbe curses, etc. In this case there was the "Whispering magic" (don't remember it's name) in which you didn't had to say the spell out loud . . .was this used by DD?


Questions that these may leave you:

Is Snape dead?
Is DD really dead?
Is someone else hidding as a dead person?
Did DD know a way to come again from dead or to make a shield against the Avada Kedabra?
Was all this a plan?

As you may have noticed my theory may have some unvalid points . . .so please post your comments

[>Xenon]

Thats an interesting point actually...

Reason #1:

When Dumbledore and Harry are entering Hogwarts in the brooms they're taking off every single spell that protects Hogwarts from apparition . . .later the HBP disaparates in Hogwarts bounds . . .When Snape shout the spell, Dumbledore may have used some wand-less magic or whatever to float in the middle of the room, but he never felt from the Astronomy room, he apparated down and later he did as he was dead on the grown . . . he disapparated later in his tomb, when we see "white flames" it was just a trick to have the dissaparition really hidden.

Because, well, when Moody used to Avada Kedavra on the spider, I don't remember it shooting into the air..(or maybe Snape didn't use that spell, I can't remember).

I agree with the spell-undoing theory, so that Dumbledore could apparate too. I don't think Dumbledore's as stupid as to take off all the spells, when he knows death eaters could be already inside the school, with maybe more following. It would have taken, all of 5 seconds, to undo the gates?
Maybe its just me wanting Dumbledore to be alive...

Does anyone remember OotP? Well, weren't we all alerted that someone was going to die, before she bought out the book itself? I don't remember there being any hype about this death. But maybe JK wanted it to be a surprise...
I don't know.

[Roderick]

Because, well, when Moody used to Avada Kedavra on the spider, I don't remember it shooting into the air..(or maybe Snape didn't use that spell, I can't remember).

I agree with the spell-undoing theory, so that Dumbledore could apparate too. I don't think Dumbledore's as stupid as to take off all the spells, when he knows death eaters could be already inside the school, with maybe more following. It would have taken, all of 5 seconds, to undo the gates?
Maybe its just me wanting Dumbledore to be alive...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah! that provides my theory a little more thinking . . . Was Snape using a diferent spell or was DD being protected by some kind of shield?

Also, maybe the spell-undoing thing was part of their plan, so that way DD would be able to apparate on the ground and Snape to escape in Draco's company . . .

[>Xenon]

What a good theory. Cause, really..Dumbledore WOULDN'T take off the spells no matter what, not even if there was a dark mark, cause that would put EVERYONE in jeopardy!
Yes, the apparition theories are definitely possible..
Wow. You should be proud!

[willbo]

sorry to ruin your parade but its wrong about the apparition stuff. dumbledore put extra spells on hogwarts for hbp. the extra spells stopped anyone from flying into hogwarts grounds. now, when he was flying in with harry, he removed that protection so that harry and himself could fly into the grounds. not sure if its said, but i would have thought he would have put the charm back on. however, even if he didnt, it doesnt matter because snape didnt fly out. also, hogwarts itself has charms to protect it. dumbledore isnt in charge of these. they are always on no matter what. the apparition thing is one of these. the building itself has had this charm before dumbledore. apparition is NOT possible in hogwarts grounds. now, you will be saying but how did snape apparate. you were wrong about his apparition. you said he apparated whilst on hogwarts grounds. re read that part of the book again. you will find that in fact, all the death eaters were running away out of the grounds. it was once they were out of the grounds that they apparated. they knew they had to run out of the grounds before apparating.

[Roderick]

Sorry to ruin YOUR parade, but . . .

In the book it says when DD takes off the charms:

"As they flew over the dark, twisting the lane down which they have walked earlier, Harry heard, over the whistling of noght air i his ears, Dumbledore muttering in some strange language again. He thought he understood why as he felt his broom shudder for a moment when they flew over the boundary wall into the grounds: Dumbledore was undoing the enchantments he himself had set around the castle, so that they could enter at speed."

Then if you read carefully, you'll see that DD didn't use his wand again . . . he told Harry to "go and wake Severus" and Draco did the Expelliarmus spell. So he had no opportunity to put the spells back
Also, it never said that DD put extra spells for students protection, just that the security was thightened.

"Snape had managed to Disapparate just beyond the school's boundaries"

^Here you may be right, but still Hogwarts WAS unprotected, anyone could have appeared or Disappeared from the castle as will . . .but if they are doing a secret plan, do you think that Snape would show up that he knew DD quit the protection? Because Snape wasn't there . . .

[willbo]

you gave a quote which proves yourself wrong. " Dumbledore was undoing the enchantments he himself had set around the castle, so that they could enter at speed"

how were they entering hogwarts? flying. correct? as i said, "now, when he was flying in with harry, he removed that protection so that harry and himself could fly into the grounds." so you have just got the quote, reinforcing what i said yet trying to say im wrong!!!

your next thing about him not having chance to put the charms back on. "not sure if its said, but i would have thought he would have put the charm back on. however, even if he didnt, it doesnt matter because snape didnt fly out." i said that. i said, i would have thought it but still said i wasnt sure if he did. went on to say that it didnt matter anyway even if he didnt. it was neither here nor there seeing as noone else had flown into or out of hogwarts grounds. fully read what i put

Here you may be right, but still Hogwarts WAS unprotected, anyone could have appeared or Disappeared from the castle as will

correct, they could have come or gone to/from the castle at will. however, they could only have done so by flying. they could not have apparated due to other protections which dumbledore hadn't taken off! remember, as you so rightly pointed out, dumbledore undid the extra enchantments he had put on to tighten security so that they could fly into hogwarts grounds. nothing else. i know what you are getting at but its like someone saying - i have a charm protecting against walking here and a charm against flying here. im flying so i will take both charms off. doesnt make sense. you would only take the charms off that applied...ESPECIALLY if you had little time and you were trying to do it with speed!

but if they are doing a secret plan, do you think that Snape would show up that he knew DD quit the protection? Because Snape wasn't there . . .

i have no idea what you are getting at there.

[Roderick]

you gave a quote which proves yourself wrong. " Dumbledore was undoing the enchantments he himself had set around the castle, so that they could enter at speed"

how were they entering hogwarts? flying. correct? as i said, "now, when he was flying in with harry, he removed that protection so that harry and himself could fly into the grounds." so you have just got the quote, reinforcing what i said yet trying to say im wrong!!!

but if they are doing a secret plan, do you think that Snape would show up that he knew DD quit the protection? Because Snape wasn't there . . .

i have no idea what you are getting at there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok . . .in my quote it never said that DD was just taking off the spells for flying inside, it is supposed that he took off everuone of them, wouldn't he? I mean, if he knows that in Hogwarts there are DE, he may give some students, staff, etc. the option of apparating out of the castle . . .

The quote doesn't even say that he took off the spells just for them entering flying, it says:

"so that they could enter at speed"

^I don't see the word flying in there . . .do you?

And in the last thing I meant that Snape never saw DD taking off the spells, so as a logic he wouldn't try to disapparate since he thinks the spells are there. But he may have been able to apparate . . .

So my parade is not runed yet

[Sportsguy]

Roderick,

My interpretation of the things discussed here are:

1. The only enchantment Dumbledore removed were those referring to their own arrival, IE flying and at top speed. JKR mentions no other spell, and while it's fair to speculate that maybe he did remove other charms, there is nothing in Canon to support that.

2. The Death Eaters dissapparated outside of Hogwarts grounds, most likely because they had to.

3. A minor point, but I believe that when one is trying to "get" information, that person is practicing Legilimency. When trying to conceal info, it is Occlumency.

4. This doesn't necessary disprove your theory, but Snape is an accomplished Occlumens. He is fooling one of the 2 greatest Legilimens in the world, either DD or Voldemort, so don't think that he couldn't have fooled Dumbledore. I, in fact, think he did.

5. Reason 4 seems a bit far-fetched. It's apparent through canon that Draco's task is to kill DD. He says that if he doesn't, Voldemort will kill the Malfoys. I believe that Snape is guilty, but I find the Snape killing DD on his own orders much more believeable than your theory. Because DD is certainly dead.

[Feather_of_the_Phenoix]

I dont even understand why you guys are arguing about apparation. In the last chapters of HBP no one apparate in or out of the castle unless Roderick you are suggesting that...

1) When Dumbledore and Harry flew into the castle, because they saw the Dark Mark, Dumbledore lifted ALL the spells and enchantments protecting and preventing people from leaving and entering the castle, including the apparation and disapparation charms.

2) Dumbledore didnt put back the spells and enchantments guarding the castle because he didnt have his wand, or because he didnt want to because he was all ready planing his escape.

3) The Death eaters and Snape ran out of the castle grounds not because they couldnt apparate, but because they didnt know they could apparate.

4) When Dumbledore was talking to Malfoy, he was discussing and giving hints about the advantages of faking ones death.

5) Dumbledore did not die when he was hit by the Avada Kedvera curse, he merely fell a sleep from the potion he drinked while in the cave via The Drought of Living Death.

6) Dumbledore faked his own death. He lifted ALL the spells and enchantments when flying into the castle with Harry so that he could safely apparate outside of the castle when he was in his tomb, where no one could see him disappear

-So Roderick are you suggesting and theorizing all of these six points?

And willbo I do understand your arguement, but it is very possible for Dumbledore to lift the anti-apparation/disappartion charms on Hogwarts grounds, because we know that it is possible. If you remeber just a few chapters prior to the one when Dumbledore was supposedly killed the Anti-apparation jinx was lifted from the Great Hall by Dumbledore with premission by the Ministry of Magic, so that the Six years could preform their apparation tests, and practices.

[willbo]

feather> accepted that he could. forgot about that. still though, that was also with ministry permission. i dont see dumbledore going against the ministry on a matter about security like apparition inside hogwarts. remember, dumbledore has said about how much he cares for the security of the students. i dont see him getting rid of this security due to the lowered security around the children.

roderick> even after elaborating on my point, you still didnt seem to grasp the idea i was putting across. "^I don't see the word flying in there . . .do you?" again, please re-read my post thoroughly. my point was that, yes, they were wanting to enter at speed. seeing as they were flying, it would only be necessary to take off any charms that would stop them from flying into hogwarts grounds. i never once said that it said anywhere that they took off these charms. i was stating the obvious which you clearly didnt grasp when i was putting across.

"...of them, wouldn't he? I mean, if he knows that in Hogwarts there are DE, he may give some students, staff, etc. the option of apparating out of the castle . . ." with this, you didnt grasp what i was putting across either. you posted the quote about dumbledore taking off spells so that they could enter with speed - speed being the key word here. would it really be speedy if dumbledore were to take off ALL charms??? no. it wouldnt. why would he waste time taking spells off that didnt need to be lifted seeing as he was only flying in? the speedy approach would just be to lift the appropriate spells. see what i mean?

[Roderick]

I dont even understand why you guys are arguing about apparation. In the last chapters of HBP no one apparate in or out of the castle unless Roderick you are suggesting that...

1) When Dumbledore and Harry flew into the castle, because they saw the Dark Mark, Dumbledore lifted ALL the spells and enchantments protecting and preventing people from leaving and entering the castle, including the apparation and disapparation charms.

2) Dumbledore didnt put back the spells and enchantments guarding the castle because he didnt have his wand, or because he didnt want to because he was all ready planing his escape.

3) The Death eaters and Snape ran out of the castle grounds not because they couldnt apparate, but because they didnt know they could apparate.

4) When Dumbledore was talking to Malfoy, he was discussing and giving hints about the advantages of faking ones death.

5) Dumbledore did not die when he was hit by the Avada Kedvera curse, he merely fell a sleep from the potion he drinked while in the cave via The Drought of Living Death.

6) Dumbledore faked his own death. He lifted ALL the spells and enchantments when flying into the castle with Harry so that he could safely apparate outside of the castle when he was in his tomb, where no one could see him disappear

-So Roderick are you suggesting and theorizing all of these six points?

And willbo I do understand your arguement, but it is very possible for Dumbledore to lift the anti-apparation/disappartion charms on Hogwarts grounds, because we know that it is possible.  If you remeber just a few chapters prior to the one when Dumbledore was supposedly killed the Anti-apparation jinx was lifted from the Great Hall by Dumbledore with premission by the Ministry of Magic, so that the Six years could preform their apparation tests, and practices.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

^Finally! . . . yeah, I'm indeed suggesting that your six points are true . . .and you're so right with the appartition test thing, they did take away the spell for their test, so he could take it of as will . . .

Because DD is certainly dead

^not so sure . . .there are many variables that can disaprove that statement, Sportsguy, for instance the fact that the Avada Kedabra actioned differently in the spiders than in DD . . .

i dont see dumbledore going against the ministry on a matter about security like apparition inside hogwarts. remember, dumbledore has said about how much he cares for the security of the students. i dont see him getting rid of this security due to the lowered security around the children.

^I really think that DD would take his own dessitions than the Ministry's . . . because he thought that Scrimgeour was kinda inapropried . . .I really think he may do waht he thinks is better for him, for his plan and for the students . . .in my theory I'm applaying the fact that DD took the spells off to give some students the opportunity to disapparate . . .

i never once said that it said anywhere that they took off these charms. i was stating the obvious which you clearly didnt grasp when i was putting across.

^Well . .. I think Jo never siad nor wrote in the book wich spells DD was taking off so we could make all this theories . . .so in my politics, it is true unless proved wrong . . .and by the way I haven't find any statement than can rigidly prove myself wrong . . .

would it really be speedy if dumbledore were to take off ALL charms??? no. it wouldnt. why would he waste time taking spells off that didnt need to be lifted seeing as he was only flying in? the speedy approach would just be to lift the appropriate spells. see what i mean?

^Yeah, i understand . .but you're not applaying this to my theory, but to the facts . . .If you think for a moment that DD was planning the option to apparate or disapparate it would be easier to understand that DD was taking OFF all the spells . . .it doesn't matter what type of spell he used to do this, it could have been a short one . . .so it could still be speedy.

See what I mean?

[>Xenon]

I'm not sure of the exact wording, even though it has been mentioned, but DD talks to Malfoy, telling him he could be hidden (by faking own death?).
As one of the best wizards around, I doubt that Dumbledore is stupid enough to get himself into this situation where he can be easily killed when Harry needs him most, particularly in coming times when he must face LV. It doesn't make sense, as DD always goes on about protecting Harry and his students. So I am suggesting that perhaps, the death was indeed faked.

Also, in GoF, Moody says immense hatred needs to be present in order to use the avada kedavra. Snape never hated DD did he? Yes, perhaps he disliked some of the ways, but I can never imagine him HATING DD.

I do think DD was taking off ALL the spells. I think that he didn't apparate inside the grounds when they had beentaken off was because he was too weak, hence Harry having to summon the brooms. I think it was just easier to fly. There is no evidence to prove otherwise that he left on the apparition/disapparition ones too. There could be one whole spell that stops unwanted guests arriving at will, which means all means off entry are now allowed. And we definitely know that DD can take off the apparition spells as he did for the apparition tests.

That isn't really making a whole lot of sense. But the overall points are:

- DD could have faked his own death in order to help Harry with upcoming tasks without LV knowing.
- Snape didn't hate DD enough to kill him
- All the spells were taken off the castle, and not certain ones left on it.

[Roderick]

I'm not sure of the exact wording, even though it has been mentioned, but DD talks to Malfoy, telling him he could be hidden (by faking own death?).
As one of the best wizards around, I doubt that Dumbledore is stupid enough to get himself into this situation where he can be easily killed when Harry needs him most, particularly in coming times when he must face LV. It doesn't make sense, as DD always goes on about protecting Harry and his students. So I am suggesting that perhaps, the death was indeed faked.

Also, in GoF, Moody says immense hatred needs to be present in order to use the avada kedavra. Snape never hated DD did he? Yes, perhaps he disliked some of the ways, but I can never imagine him HATING DD.

I do think DD was taking off ALL the spells. I think that he didn't apparate inside the grounds when they had beentaken off was because he was too weak, hence Harry having to summon the brooms. I think it was just easier to fly. There is no evidence to prove otherwise that he left on the apparition/disapparition ones too. There could be one whole spell that stops unwanted guests arriving at will, which means all means off entry are now allowed. And we definitely know that DD can take off the apparition spells as he did for the apparition tests.

That isn't really making a whole lot of sense. But the overall points are:

- DD could have faked his own death in order to help Harry with upcoming tasks without LV knowing.
- Snape didn't hate DD enough to kill him
- All the spells were taken off the castle, and not certain ones left on it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

^Thanks a lot for agreeing! . . . just thought of something . . .they flew in Rosmerta's brooms to the castle so in their way they'll be able to undo the spells . . .also as you just said, it's quite impossible that DD would be in a sitution where he would just depend on a petirifcated harry . . .yeah! Snape couldn't really hate DD . . .but (even though this may give some disapproving point to my theory) Moody didn't hate the spiders either . . .did he? . .. but I think you can do it if you're trained an ready . . .but was Snape ready? yes he was, it was all part of the plan . . .And I'll still support the fact that all the spells where taken off . . .

[mtomsic4]

I don't believe that DD removed all of the enchantments from Hogwarts and my reasoning is the portion of the sentence that everyone has been leaving off:

"As they flew over the dark, twisting lane down which they had walked earlier, Harry heard, over the whistling of the night air in his ears, Dumbledore muttering some strange language again. He thought he understood why as he felt his broom shudder when they flew over the boundary wall into the grounds: Dumbledore was undoing the enchantments he himself had set around the castle so they could enter at speed."

I would think that the broom shuddering implied that they were still passing through some sort of magical barrier.

As for having to hate someone to use the AK on them, I don't recall Moody ever saying that. I do recall however that in the MoM at the end of book 5 Bellatrix said that you had to be determined to use an unforgivable curse. I don't think that in GoF Wormtail particularly hated Cedric, he just knew that he had to kill him and that was that. Same goes for Snape killing DD, he didn't have to hate him just be determined that he wanted to kill him.

I still believe that DD is dead for the simple fact that Harry never would have to grow up or get strong enough to face LV if he always knows that DD will be there to protect him. Also, if DD were alive why would his picture have appeared in the Headmaster's office. I feel that the school is almost alive and can sense when a headmaster has passed on. Think about when Umbridge became "headmistress" the office refused her to enter. I don't think it was a spell by DD just the school itself rejecting her.

[>Xenon]

As for having to hate someone to use the AK on them, I don't recall Moody ever saying that. I do recall however that in the MoM at the end of book 5 Bellatrix said that you had to be determined to use an unforgivable curse. I don't think that in GoF Wormtail particularly hated Cedric, he just knew that he had to kill him and that was that. Same goes for Snape killing DD, he didn't have to hate him just be determined that he wanted to kill him.

I stand corrected. The actual words are;

"Avada Kedavra's a curse that needs a powerful bit of magic behind it - you could all get your wands out now and point them at me and say the words, but I doubt I'd get some much as a nose bleed."

And as for the effect on the spiders,

'There was a flash of blinding green light and a rushing sound, as though a vast invisible something was soaring through the air - instantaneously the spider rolled over onto its back, unmarked, but unmistakeably dead.'

So the AK definitely DOESN'T make the victim rise into the air...

"As they flew over the dark, twisting lane down which they had walked earlier, Harry heard, over the whistling of the night air in his ears, Dumbledore muttering some strange language again. He thought he understood why as he felt his broom shudder when they flew over the boundary wall into the grounds: Dumbledore was undoing the enchantments he himself had set around the castle so they could enter at speed."

I would think that the broom shuddering implied that they were still passing through some sort of magical barrier.

As the brooms didn't stop while DD undid the enchantments, the brooms were probably experiencing the effects of the spells being unravelled and not proving that they were passing some other barrier at the same time.

[mtomsic4]

"As they flew over the dark, twisting lane down which they had walked earlier, Harry heard, over the whistling of the night air in his ears, Dumbledore muttering some strange language again. He thought he understood why as he felt his broom shudder when they flew over the boundary wall into the grounds: Dumbledore was undoing the enchantments he himself had set around the castle so they could enter at speed."

I took it as meaning that DD was undoing the enchantments while they were flying through the streets and Harry didn't understand what he was muttering for until they got to the boundaries and were able to fly through. Otherwise that was an aweful long incantation since I always thought Hogsmeade was a ways from the castle and not just on the other side of the walls.

[sabiya]

[quote name='Roderick' date='Aug 4 2005, 10:51 PM']
SPOILER ALERT!


Evidence 1:
My theory begins with the missing sentence from the Bloomsbury editions:

[quote]"He cannot kill you if you're already dead"[/quote]

This sentence is part of Dumbledore's dialogue when he's convinving Draco to come to the right side.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
i'm confused, what's this about a missing sentence on the bloomsbury book? i have the bloomsbury one and that sentence isnt in it. is the american version the on you're referring to?if so, did jkrolwing say why she took out such a significant sentence in the bloomsbury versions? the snetence could be a hint at his own death being faked so that voldemort cant kill him.
personally i thought snape getting angry at being called a coward was becasue he lied to and killed the only wizard VD was ever scared of for 16years. and i think the thing dumbledore asked snape to do when they were arguing was to break his unbreakable vow and give up his life for the OOTP.
anyway, i'd like to know a bit more about this missing sentence.
thanks xxx
just found the thread on the missing sentence. ignore my query.

[Roderick]

As for having to hate someone to use the AK on them, I don't recall Moody ever saying that. I do recall however that in the MoM at the end of book 5 Bellatrix said that you had to be determined to use an unforgivable curse. I don't think that in GoF Wormtail particularly hated Cedric, he just knew that he had to kill him and that was that. Same goes for Snape killing DD, he didn't have to hate him just be determined that he wanted to kill him.

I stand corrected. The actual words are;

"Avada Kedavra's a curse that needs a powerful bit of magic behind it - you could all get your wands out now and point them at me and say the words, but I doubt I'd get some much as a nose bleed."

And as for the effect on the spiders,

'There was a flash of blinding green light and a rushing sound, as though a vast invisible something was soaring through the air - instantaneously the spider rolled over onto its back, unmarked, but unmistakeably dead.'

So the AK definitely DOESN'T make the victim rise into the air...


As the brooms didn't stop while DD undid the enchantments, the brooms were probably experiencing the effects of the spells being unravelled and not proving that they were passing some other barrier at the same time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

^You're always so right . . . the Avada Kedabra never did that reaction until used on DD . . . and that's what I thought too, what they're feeling when they're flying is the undoing of the spells, they feel when the spells go off . . .

dumbledore asked snape to do when they were arguing was to break his unbreakable vow and give up his life for the OOTP.

^that's valid . . . and a good theory too . ..

[MudBlood91]

I don't think DD took off ALL the charms including the apparition/disapparition one. Did the book say that DD took off the charms in the Great Hall himself? I don't think he did...

[Roderick]

He did it with permission of the Ministry . . .but he may have done it withouth their permission . . . and by the way, he asks Rosmerta to send a message to the ministry . . .maybe as an excuse to quit the regulation of entering and apparate/disapparate from Hogwarts . . .

[>Xenon]

I don't think DD took off ALL the charms including the apparition/disapparition one. Did the book say that DD took off the charms in the Great Hall himself? I don't think he did...

From what I understood, he did take them off himself, with the permission of the ministry, as Roderick said..but Dumbledore has never been one to follow rules and I suppose, as it was his school, could remove/add prtoection as he saw fit.



There are more clues it was planned too;

1. Dumbledore must have known that he was going to die, or have planned to die that night. When Malfoy enters the tower, Harry is 'frozen' to the wall. Why would DD have put him there if he was going to fetch help? The answer: Dumbledore needed a witness. Harry would no doubt tell other people in the order exactly what had happened, and someone would notice the oddities of the effects of the "AK" and would no that DD was not dead after all.


2. Fawkes doesn't try to save DD! In OotP, we know that Fawkes saves DD from the AK.

"one more jet of green light had flown at Dumbledore from Voldemort's wand and the snake had struck - Fawkes swooped down in front of Dumbledore, opened his beak wide, and swallowed the jet of green light whole. He burst into flame and fell to the floor, small, wrinkled and flightless." Surely, Fawkes would have come to rescue his owner at a time like this, UNLESS, he was commanded not to, or the attack was not fatal.

3. i found the exact words Bellatrix uses, in co-ordinance with the Unforgivable Curses that I incorrectly stated that Moody used earlier. They are:

"You need to mean them, Potter! You need to really want to cause pain - to enjoy it .

Maybe Snape didn't mean them, as he was working for DD and the AK curse didn't cause the total killing effect as when someone DOES want to cause pain. It is therefore possible that Dumbledore was not hurt at all!

And another thing; Dumbledore is disarmed right? Then where did his wand go?? Surely one of the death eaters would have picked it up or something, but there is no mention of it...possibly Dumbledore reaqquired his wand before running away to fake his own death?

Edited by >Xenon, 05 August 2005 - 11:49 PM.

[willbo]

"You need to mean them, Potter! You need to really want to cause pain - to enjoy it " that was for the cruciatus curse. avada kedavra is an instantaneous death so its not really about causing pain. cruciatus is.

"i dont see dumbledore going against the ministry on a matter about security like apparition inside hogwarts. remember, dumbledore has said about how much he cares for the security of the students. i dont see him getting rid of this security due to the lowered security around the children."

i still strongly disagree that dumbledore would go against the ministry when its something to do with security of the students. do you remember when dumbledore got angry at harry because he said that dumbledore had left hogwarts unsafe? i seriously doubt that dumbledore would drop security for himself so that he could fake his death! dumbledore is not selfish. he would put his life before the students.

now, as for dumbledores wand. we dont know where it went at all. due to the disarming spell, it flew off the top of the tower meaning it could have gone anywhere! dead of the night. how would you expect anyone to find it!? literally like finding a needle in a hay stack!

im not going to get into the rest of the argument about the charms. it makes full sense but i can see the argument just going back and forth. its common sense in my eyes really.

[>Xenon]

i still strongly disagree that dumbledore would go against the ministry when its something to do with security of the students. do you remember when dumbledore got angry at harry because he said that dumbledore had left hogwarts unsafe? i seriously doubt that dumbledore would drop security for himself so that he could fake his death! dumbledore is not selfish. he would put his life before the students.

By taking off ANY of the spells protecting the castle he is putting everyone at risk anyway.

[Roderick]

i still strongly disagree that dumbledore would go against the ministry when its something to do with security of the students. do you remember when dumbledore got angry at harry because he said that dumbledore had left hogwarts unsafe? i seriously doubt that dumbledore would drop security for himself so that he could fake his death! dumbledore is not selfish. he would put his life before the students.

now, as for dumbledores wand. we dont know where it went at all. due to the disarming spell, it flew off the top of the tower meaning it could have gone anywhere! dead of the night. how would you expect anyone to find it!? literally like finding a needle in a hay stack!

im not going to get into the rest of the argument about the charms. it makes full sense but i can see the argument just going back and forth. its common sense in my eyes really.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

^Don't you rememeber in OoTP when DD completely disobeyed(sp) the Ministry's orders and indeed attacked them in his office . . .isn't that enought evidence of DD's disagreement with the Ministry . . .I don't think he cares about their rules .. . He was the "helper" of the last prime minister . . . He had once the option to be the Minister. . .I thik he won't care about Scrimgeour's desition

[>Xenon]

now, as for dumbledores wand. we dont know where it went at all. due to the disarming spell, it flew off the top of the tower meaning it could have gone anywhere! dead of the night. how would you expect anyone to find it!? literally like finding a needle in a hay stack!

We're in the wizrding world here. I'm sure it woudn't take 500 wizards and witches searching around the grounds for hours to find a stick of wood. More likely, that there is a spell that can findDD's wand?

For example, accio dumbledore's wand? Thats presuming its not with him of course.

[willbo]

"^Don't you rememeber in OoTP when DD completely disobeyed(sp) the Ministry's orders and indeed attacked them in his office . . .isn't that enought evidence of DD's disagreement with the Ministry . . .I don't think he cares about their rules .. . He was the "helper" of the last prime minister . . . He had once the option to be the Minister. . .I thik he won't care about Scrimgeour's desition wink.gif"

yes. that wasnt anything to do with security. they were trying to arrest him! as i have repeatedly said, when it comes to students protection, he will make sure they are safe. i will re-word what i have said also. it happens to be that the ministry are looking out for the students protection so in this case dumbledore is doing what he wants to do but in this instance it is the same as what the ministry want. i completely understand and fully know that dumbledore feels like he is above the ministry in matters. but still, when it is down to protection of students, he will do his best to keep them safe.

" By taking off ANY of the spells protecting the castle he is putting everyone at risk anyway."

exactly. SO, he would want to minimise the amount of charms taken off. minimising the amount of charms taken off would minimise the amount of extra risk. another reason why he wouldnt take off all the charms as suggested. seeing as he was flying into hogwarts grounds, only take off the few charms that applied. this way all the other protection charms can still do their job.

i would like to see you try to find a "stick of wood", as you put it, in huge grounds when it could have gone anywhere....in the dead of night aswell! think about the height of the tower, the speed that the wand flew out of his hand out not to mention not having a clue which direction it went. it could have gone anywhere!! also, remember there wasnt 500 wizards there to search. there was about 7 or 8. none actively searching either remember! they were too busy running away and fighting. i highly doubt it if they had anything else on their minds other than trying to kill!!! true, they could have done accio... but as said in the last sentence, im sure they would prefer to do a spell to protect themselves or a spell to try and harm someone else instead of a charm to get a wand that they most likely havent even thought about... especially when they had more pressing matters on their minds!

[>Xenon]

I never said there were 500 wizards there at that particular time. It was just a random number I pulled out of my head. And as for people not worrying about the wand, it could have all been part of the master plan!


Okay, I agree thats getting quite far fetched now...

[willbo]

i know. but i was just using it as a way to point out that there were so few of them there. its just that its going to be the last thing on any of their minds at that moment in time. come on, see some sense on at least that one.....please?

[>Xenon]

Maybe the whole wand thing was farfetched, but its still a slight SLIGHT possibility. I just can't see DD getting into this situation (if he knew it was coming like he told Draco) and leaving Harry to find the horcurxes on his own

I do agree some of the other theories make much more sense than DD being killed. The effects of the AK are my favourite!