20 replies to this topic

[Phoenix_Song]

Well, this question comes from a comment that one of my friends made when reading my Lily, Year 1. This friend is of the male persuasion, and his comment was that I did a great job with developing the Marauders; that I've taken the "roles" that JKR has given each one briefly, and sort of fleshed them out, and that I'd done such a good job with them that it brought back memories of when he was younger, and made him all nostalgic about that time. Which was a great compliment. However, he said with my girls, the characterizations aren't quite as good. There is no clear definition of their "role", he gets Alice and Amelia confused easily, etc.

I have to admit that I was a little surprised by this, because Alice and Amelia are very easily two separate entitites in my head. They have very real, and very basic differences in their characters and how they react to the same situations, and so on and so forth. So then, I re-read what he'd said. Alice and Amelia, and Lily, for that matter, have no clearly defined roles in their relationships.

With the Marauders, you've got James and Sirius, the "leaders", Remus "the conscience", and Peter, "the follower". They aren't quite as simple as that, but within their group, at least, those are their roles. And according to this male friend, JKR was dead on in her depiction of male friendships, particularly at that age. So the boys are all part of a group and have clearly defined roles. This makes them easy to differentiate from one another and characterize.

My relationships with my friends, however, were not like that at all. We didn't have "roles" in the friendships. We were together because we enjoyed talking and spending time together, playing. This is how I wrote Alice and Amelia, who are loosely based on two of my best friends when I was younger. Alice, Amelia, and Lily are friends because they enjoy sitting around and talking, they share a lot of the same values and core beliefs, and they each have respect for one another. There are no "leaders" becaus they're not out wreaking havoc and causing trouble. There is no "conscience" because they are all the conscience...they all share similar values and beliefs, and they rarely need to remind one another of that. And there are no followers. In the friendships I had in my younger years (and now, even), every member of the group was an equal. There was no "hanger-on". The differences in these girls are more in what they find most important, their mannerisms, their reactions to the same events, etc. The difference is not in their "role" in the friendship. So it's more subtle, and harder to characterize, in my opinion.

So obviously I've had a tougher time trying to characterize the girls and their friendships, and making them distinct individuals than I had with the boys. My question, yes there is one after all that rambling, is which do you find more difficult to write, to characterize, to develop? Are girls' friendships harder? Boys? Mixed-gender groups? Etc. If so, why? What are the challenges you've found for each? For me, it was realistically portraying girl friendships while still defining each member as an individual. What was it for you? Which would you rather write? And all other questions related to the portrayal of genders in friendships.

[MrsFiggsCat]

Writing about girls is about the most difficult thing there is to do! It's almost as if boys fall into 'role playing' naturally, while girls seem to try their hardest to behave like sheep - all doing the same kind of thing in the same kind of way at the same kind of time. Looking at assorted teenage and pre-teen friends, I have a horrible suspicion that this merely reflects reality. Were we really that indistinguishable from one another? Well, actually, thinking about it, I know I was trying to be (and mostly failing!). It was different from the 'inside', as you say, Phoenix Song: YOU knew who you were - but that probably wasn't what it looked like from the 'outside'.

Actually, I think I'd take your friend's remarks as a compliment. It rather sounds as though you've painted an accurate picture!

:cat:

[Lindsey]

Were we really that indistinguishable from one another?

I don't know about everyone else, but my friends and I have roles in our group. Well, not really roles exactly, like the leader, but we have COMPLETELY different personalities. There's the cheerleader type, the advice giver, the sort of unemotional one, and I'm the tomboy. It's just the way we are. If you looked at the four of us, you would never think we would get along, but we do.

So, that being said, writing girls' relationships isn't that hard for me. I might not be good at it, but most of the time the relationship is based loosely on my relationship with my friends, so each person is different from the other. For me, writing mixed gender friendships is easiest. I'm not exactly sure why, though.

-Linds

[steve]

Seeing as women are so very complicated I find them very complicating to write. It kind of depresses me with my darker fic, I love the ladies but beautiful creatures can be so evil. But you all seem so very nice, so no offense to any female reading this.

Now I believe I can sum up your problem like this. Think of a high school cafeteria, all the cliques sitting at separate tables, yes segregation isn't good but you can't help it when they do it themselves. Cliques recognize other cliques: ex) Preps see punks. They don't tend to recognize people within the peer groups. So unless you are really in the clique you don't really know the people. I think this the problem with your friend they can't relate to your characters, so he doesn't know how they do things. Of course I could be wrong.

[Angel]

*strokes chin* I've had a bigger problem with boys than girls. I think the fact that I'm a girl it's easier for me to get into their heads and know what they're going through.

Like in my OC's they don't have roles as the Marauders did, however, they each have distinct qualities and personalities which sets them apart from each other.

My problem with guys only happened when I was writing in First Person for 'Snake Eyes'... I had to constantly keep in mind "I'm in the mind of a guy..." I had to remember that guys are different from girls. Girls tend to be more sensitive while guys tend to be more insensitive, etc. etc.

Mixing genders for friendships, I think, is easy yet hard. I want my readers to know how they care about each other and such but at the same time I want my readers to know who likes who and who doesn't. I don't want confusion of "ships" in my stories; don't want people wondering "Is it R/H or H/H?"..

Other than those problems, I think I handle my characters well. At least, I hope so

*Putters off*

[*Liliana*]

Maybe it's because I read a lot, but I haven't had much trouble depicting any one of the three relationships mentioned. For some reason, I always have in my mind what how two characters will relate to each other.

One reason could be because I actually write mini-biographies of my characters, and I inundate each of their lives with a wealth of detail, such as memorable experiences, life-changing moments, or even their habits and idiosyncracies (sp?). I find a character development sketch for each of my characters helps me establish them as actual people, and thus their relationships with each other are easier to figure out since I know how each of my characters will react.

[filchescat]

Not to stereotype authors or anything but most famous writers claim to have a much harder time writing the oppsite sex rather than their own. They fear unknowlingly overgerneralzing and stereotyping their characters and get left with a cliched trite work.

Filchescat has noticed another cliche in present day American poetry. The poet finds an obscure mythos from some 3rd world culture (preferably Africa or Native American) and then uses the aforementioned in their work to: 1) show how "enlightened", "diverse," and PC they are and 2) make the reader feel like a sheltered naive dumb-A.S.S...

Another cliche in American Litt that is way overused is the "Trickster myth " from Native American Litt. It may have been big-time and cutting edge in 1975, but today in 2001 anyone who uses it jumps into cliched art immediately.

(there...now Filchescat has had her rant for the day...feels so much better.)

hissing and spitting with a vengence,

Filchey

[Phoenix_Song]

Filchescat, I'd love to hear the "trickster myth". I'm afraid I've never formally studied literature, or writing or what not, so...please! Educate me.

[filchescat]

Well PS the Trickster is a Native American deity found mainly but not limited to the plains tribes. He appears most commonly as an old man or a coyote but can take any form. He is usually a minor deity that causes minor harmless havoc. If a family was setting up their teepee and the wind blew it over, they might say, "the trickster tricked us."

Oh, and you are only supposed to talk about the Trickster at night. Horrible bad luck to talk about him during the daytime???

That might be a nice Harry Potter monster. They have special DADA lessons at night while studying it because they'd get jinxed if they spoke its name in the daytime... FC's small golf-ball-sized cat brain ponders and ponders...

One book in Don Coldsmith's outstanding "Spanish Bit Saga" features Trickster prominiently. Medicine Rock??? Filchey can't remember...

meow,

Filchescat

[PaulaMcG]

I haven't tried to describe teenagers in groups. Even later in my current fic, I guess my adult protagonist, a thirty-eight-year-old man, will concentrate on the personalities and the roles of four boys, when he writes about his teenage years in his autobiography. There may not be so much about the girls, and perhaps there will be more about them as separate individuals than as members of a group.

This could be due to cultural as well as personal differences, but, having been a girl, I have more experiences of girls in pairs than in bigger groups. Girls seem to practise for forming couples and being loyal to one person.

But what I think would be most difficult for me to write about teenagers, as it is often difficult even to accept as plausible when I read (though tempting as if dream teenage years which I never had) is to describe mixed groups. The obvious reason is that I was too shy to ever talk to boys, until I was eighteen or twenty. I suppose most teenagers act in such groups, though my eldest son who'll turn twelve in November still interacts almost exclusively with boys.

Unlike "most famous writers" (as Filchescat referred to those) I don't find it more difficult to write about men, even if I am no man. The reason for this could be that in my life I've had a lot more intimate relationships with men than with women. I haven't got negative feedback on excessive femininity or stereotyped masculinity in my protagonist. I suppose he is based enough on other people (on men) and on generalized human tendencies in addition to my own character and personal experiences.

I guess it's easier for me to write about adult characters, not only because I can identify better with a protagonist of my (and my husband's and my best friends') age, but also because I became socially active only in my twenties. I hope my children and their friends help me develop some wider understanding of younger people, too.

[skm]

Because fan fiction is basically short stories, the author may not take the time for character development as they should. For instance, in a novel, the author may devote a huge section just to the background of the characters so the reader can have a clear mental image. To do it right, the author would probably have a database or a card file on each person and maybe even a sketch or photograph. The file would have everything in it.. age, height, weight, sex, occupation, quirks.. common phrases.. etc. The author would probably spend much time in a public place just people watching to gather reference material on that character. There would be a seperate file for each major person.

I find it easiest to write from a woman's point of view, obviously. Men have different mannerisms. They will say things or move in a different way than women. I often catch myself using a phrase or mannerism common for a woman and must ask my male friends how he would say it.

Men think differently from women. So you must put your head into thinking like the other. JK does it very well and I'm most impressed.

All in all, I think it's an art and something that we learn from experience and as we become more accomplished as writers.

[PaulaMcG]

I feel tempted and almost provoked to reply to your post, Sharon, though – or maybe because – you didn't refer to mine. I'm sorry if this is too self-centred, goes off to a tangent, and kills another conversation.

My fanfiction is basically a novel, and according to your standards, Sharon, I don't do it right at all. Furthermore, I don't think I'd do it a lot differently, even if it was an original novel and we had not known anything about the characters beforehand. I don't have a file of any of the characters and I have no accurate information on how much each of them weighs. Instead, I allow my narrative to unfold their character traits and their present and past circumstances gradually, and I hardly know more than the reader knows or more than what the protagonist thinks about at any point.

I suppose it depends on the genre how a novel is written in the "right" way. Because I mean to write an epic account of an imaginary hero's deeds and personal development, I chose to show everything only from his perspective. He can't possibly know other characters' accurate weights or everything about their backgrounds. That's why I don't think it's necessary to explain these things to the readers or even to myself at the beginning. Even his own history is revealed gradually, when he stops to think about it. It is not possible to give to the reader a clear image of every character, because they are seen subjectively through the protagonist's eyes, and each reader can use that interpretation as the basis of his or her own interpretations of them. There is no single correct image of anything.

I can understand that in a mystery or an action story an omniscient narrator can be a better alternative, and in that case it's perhaps more important to have a lot of details about several characters given to the reader as objectively as possible.

Furthermore, my genre is fantasy. Even if issues of real life are the ultimate themes of the story, the protagonist and other characters don't need to repeat the mannerisms of real men and women. I allow my protagonist to think and even talk in a more poetic manner than what I would ever be able to write, if I asked my husband how a man would say something – as if I didn't know just too well even without asking.

[Demeter Tess Reading]

One reason could be because I actually write mini-biographies of my characters, and I inundate each of their lives with a wealth of detail, such as memorable experiences, life-changing moments, or even their habits and idiosyncracies (sp?).  I find a character development sketch for each of my characters helps me establish them as actual people, and thus their relationships with each other are easier to figure out since I know how each of my characters will react.

I do the same. ^__^ Makes things much easier, doesn't it?

So far as I know, I've never had difficulty in characterizing relationships. Actually, character interaction seems to be one of my strong points. [Or, at least, it is the facet of my writing that generally receives the most reader response. ^^;;] But now that I think about it, the majority of my OCs are fairly reserved with only one or two friends apiece, and most of my dialogue is written between two characters, as opposed to four or five. I've never tried to write a fanfiction about an entire gang of kids. Perhaps that would prove more troublesome.

In general, I find that I most enjoy writing male-female friendships. When things veer toward the romantic side it can get a bit sticky, but the dialogue and banter come naturally to me. I'm led to believe that I favour girl-boy friendships because I've always had more male friends than female. The relationships between Demeter and Edmund [A Raven's Destiny] and Ariadne and Wade [DNotS] are simply a joy to write.

On quite the other hand, I LOATHE female-female friendships. Girls are so catty. And when they're not being catty, they're, well, boring. ^^;; Obviously, this is why my female characters NEVER get along. NEVER. ^_~

@-->--- Tess

[filchescat]

PaulaMac wrote:
---Instead, I allow my narrative to unfold their character traits and their present and past circumstances gradually, and I hardly know more than the reader knows or more than what the protagonist thinks about at any point.---

PaulaMac, there is an American poet who died a few years back (sometime in the 90s) named Denise Levertov. She had an esthetic and belief about "the writing process" similar to yours. I can't remember her famous essay where she articulated her views... I'll try to look it up for you. She first achieved fame as one of the Black Mountain Poets of the mid-to-late 1950s.\

meow.

Filchescat

[PaulaMcG]

Thank you, Filchescat. Sometimes I can't help myself, though I'm afraid I just kill the conversation by developing my own thoughts while posting on these threads. My aesthetics and ideas of the writing process (like all the other things I write about) develop while I'm using the written language to express them. It's good to know that somebody can relate to my thoughts, at least a dead poet. I looked up Denise Levertov in my Penguin Book of American Poetry and noticed that I had marked those pages with three poems by her, which must have happened some fifteen years ago. I've never read any essay by her, though.

Tess, I can understand that mini-biographies and sketches make things easier for some writers. At least it helps you to plan the names and all the details of the characters to fit their destinies. I have found it surprisingly easy to let the characters introduce themselves gradually. The most obvious problem has been that when my protagonist unexpectedly meets someone new, whom I have not known beforehand at all either, I need to quickly (at the latest by the end of the refining of the instalment, which I don't even want to make too quick and easy) come up with a name. That's one reason why some of the names in my fiction are rather boring. I think it's realistic: not everyone's destiny or any character trait is implied in the name he or she was given as a baby, or in the family name. On the other hand, I understand that some hints included in the names can give a further dimension to literature, which is not the same as real life, after all. But my type of writing process has not caused any serious problems in portraying the characters and their relationships. At least my readers have not complained, but maybe I should remember that on our wonderful forum you hardly ever see any negative feedback.

I seem to have the dislike for female-female relationships in common with you, Tess. I can't help repeating that I don't relate to women, especially young women among themselves when they talk about women things like fashion and hairstyles, as easily as to men. Do I have some stereotyped ideas of my own gender? Or maybe I just end up seldom writing about two women or girls in the same scene, because I always need to have my male protagonist there.

Like you, Tess, I have also noticed that to some extent I'm tempted to write dialogues between only two characters, unless my protagonist is completely on his own, since he is at times rather a recluse. On the other hand, alternating between lonely moments and encounters with several people has become quite a pleasure.

Eija

[makya]

It generally doesn't matter much to me I tend to just write in one person's views and usually don't make my oc's main characters so really have no need for a full backround on them. Case in point Mr. Jerry from my fic kiss of death he is my only lasting oc in that fic he has a very small part and is mainly desribed as a tall man but if I ever felt the need I would just describe him how I have envisioned him. So I usually write in a cannon characters Perspective and so there attitudes and mannierisms and clearly documented so I have no need to make it up myself.


But when I do write in OC which I have only done in one fic I make a VERY short bio this being full name,hogwarts house, appearance,and a slight outline of their personality also if the fic calls for it in which case this one did I say if they're pure blood, half blood ,or muggle born.


Now to the original question I really have no preference I tend to just write their musings also my fics have VERY little diolouge and that to me is just hard to write no matter the gender. So in the musings it just all sorta comes out I don't try to keep a perticualar writing style to diferentioate between male and female because I think that it would all be the same in ones mind.

So theres my two pence

~Jennifer~

[filchescat]

Makya wrote:

"It generally doesn't matter much to me I tend to just write in one person's views and usually don't make my oc's main characters so really have no need for a full backround on them. Case in point Mr. Jerry from my fic kiss of death he is my only lasting oc in that fic he has a very small part and is mainly desribed as a tall man but if I ever felt the need I would just describe him how I have envisioned him. So I usually write in a cannon characters Perspective and so there attitudes and mannierisms and clearly documented so I have no need to make it up myself."

It seems like Hemmingway or Fitzgerald (Filchescat can't recall) sometimes never physically described his characters at all. Could write a whole short story and it didn't matter. So if you don't care to describe your OC...well... there is an example of someone great who didn't need to to succeed.

m,

fc

[PaulaMcG]

I'm reposting another contribution of mine to the fanfiction discussions. Here I replied to Sharon (skm), too, in addition to the two posts above, and I doubt Sharon will add her lost post. As far as I remember, she mainly repeated her idea that some kind of files including facts about the characters should be compiled before writing a story, especially if it is an original story. In fanfiction, she said, we already know everything about the characters, thanks to the original author.


Makya and Filchescat,
I doubt Hemingway refrained from describing his characters' appearance because of a lack of need to do so, while writing from another character's perspective. I guess it would be logical to feel more need to describe the appearance of such a character whom the protagonists looks at, maybe even for the first time. The details, of course, will be selected on the basis of the protagonist's interest and interpreted by him or her (in case the narrative is in a particular third person perspective).

And I'm sure he didn't ignore the development of any character's attitudes and mannerisms, counting on those having been documented somewhere else. It's a different issue, if an author chooses not to reveal the colour of the protagonist's eyes and hair, or even any physical traits of that character, so that each reader can imagine suitable looks which he or she can best relate to.

But fanfic writers or perhaps young writers in general may tend to do all that just the other way round. I also believe that great writers care to learn to use some punctuation before possibly developing a unique style of avoiding it.


Sharon,
Thank you for now referring to my post. I didn't mean to reply on the basis of feeling offended. I simply hope we'd reply more to what others have said, so we wouldn't end up stating only separate opinions.

I still claim that JKR's way of writing is not the only right one. And I dare assume that we don't know all about e.g. Remus Lupin on the basis of her books. Still, when I started writing my fic, which has taught us a lot more about him – or allowed each of us, me as the writer and each of my readers – to develop our interpretations of him, I knew only what she had told us, and what I had understood on the basis of her writing. The rest has unfolded during the process.

You may argue that if I started writing a publishable novel, I should have a corresponding amount of information in my mind or even in a tangible file at the beginning. But I feel I could at any moment take one of my original, now minor characters – who have emerged suddenly and introduced themselves gradually – and make him or her into a protagonist. I could set his or her story e.g. in one of the hidden regions I have built up without any need to rely on someone else's work. Am I too arrogant?


As for the original topic, I assume that – even inside our minds – we verbalize things as men and women, but most of all as the multifaceted individuals were are. Emphasizing a particular style, when writing a character's speech or thoughts, only on the basis of his or her gender, may cause the portrayal of the character and his or her relationships to not do justice to all the other facets: culture (on the general level), family background, education and other experiences, values and so on. The gender is, of course, intertwined with all that, but maybe that is exactly why real people are not standard men and standard women. On the other hand, everything is possible in literature, so you may build up stereotyped characters for a reason, e.g. in order to show what is expected from us by the media.

(Am I getting carried away again? My excuse is that I should be translating a book, and it bores me to tears.)

[Twiggie]

Personally, I believe it's harder to write as a boy, because I'm a girl. It's easier to write about your own gender is my opinion. I think it's the most fun to write about someone that isn't anything like you. You can be really original. I'm writing a book called 'polo' about Abercrombie ..um.. things. I despise Abercrombie. A lot. It's fun to be a girly girl as a book.

~Em

[*Liliana*]

True, it is easier to write your own gender. Yet, I think that depends on how much you know the opposite sex, right?

I have a younger brother whom I'm close to. I know him better than I want to know, LOL. So, since I also have close guy friends, I try to write their kinds of characters, likes, and opinions into my male characters - especially the Marauders. I have friends who are JUST like Sirius, James, and Remus. Maybe that's why I can't write Peter so well, since I'm not friends with anyone like him? *shrug*

For writers who don't have this kind of experience, I advise you to watch movies that have leading male roles. Usually, the male roles are artistically studied in the film, and in this way you can have some kind of idea about how to write male characters.

[Angel]

I agree with you Lils. It's easier to get a grasp with certain personalities and the opposite sex when writing when one has encountered such things before.

If someone who has only had negative feelings from a certain personality type, they may always write a character with that personality and being only one-sided.

I love having movies for help ^__^